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Is the Church of God going the way of Kmart?(link) (Image)

 
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Post Is the Church of God going the way of Kmart?(link) (Image) cogpastorwve
Is the Church of God going the way of Kmart?(link) (Image)

Every time you turn on the T.V. news, you hear about the decline of the once notable American business. Kmart stores are closing all across America. The business side of me wants to ask why. What goes into the anatomy of a declining business that at one time was very successful? Then I had a friend at a large, successful non-denominational church recommend the movie When God Left the Building. This movie chronicled the decline of the church in America and what we can do to salvage Christianity in our nation before it is too late. (Here is a link to watch the trailer http://www.whengodleftthebuilding.com ) This movie got me thinking about the present state of my church and even more so what my organization is doing to help me fix it. Then a light bulb went off in my head. I feel like I am a manager at Kmart. No matter how hard I work or how well of a job I am doing, my organization is still crashing because I am not given the tools to be successful.

Kmart's demise is a result of not responding to a market with modernization. When you walk into a Kmart, look at the marketing materials look at the things the corporation has a hand in. The branding they have is very out of touch. It is either so far behind that it looks like the sign was dragged out of the bottom of the store room from where it sat in the 80s, or they brand so idealistically with overselling that it does not match anything that they sell. From a middle management level, how do you fix the problem with the tools you are given? This is how out of touch Kmart is. When my wife and I walked into a store, we noticed the electronics department was still called Music and Video with the logo of a CD and videocassette. No one buys music at a physical store any more, and the videocassette is dead. It has been long replaced by DVD, Blu-ray and Internet streaming services like YouTube and Netflix. How can you still have the advertisement of 1999 and still be considered competitive?

Kmarts marketing and branding is dead. I have not walked into a Kmart in the last fifteen years and said; hey they are doing something right. In reality, every time I have walked in a Kmart, I was thinking, why didnt I just go to Wal-Mart? Even better, I wish they would do some things like Target. Wal-Mart and Target in the late 80s were not the success story you hear about today. Kmart was still a large player in the department store landscape at that time. Kmart had just the same opportunities as Wal-Mart or Target. Kmart, in reality, had more opportunity because they were a market leader at that time. Kmart made one HUGE MISTAKE. They would not invest in a new computerized inventory system. They had huge backlash and rebellion from their management not to go with computers. They claimed that paper inventory was more reliable. In reality, management was intimidated by a technology they did not understand and could not fathom how this technology was about to change the very way of how they did business.

Both Target and Wal-Mart were investing in computers. They eventually could keep inventory of everything electronically and could tell when they were running low on something when a customer checked out of the store. Kmart still had to have employees with pens and clipboards walk the aisle and do inventory by hand. This created a huge gap in Kmarts ability to compete; and they eventually fell to the point where they are today. They had to cut prices with the same cost when everyone else was cutting cost because of saving money.

Don't get me wrong; we have some very successful churches just like Kmart has successful stores. It is just our successful ministries do not reflect the average run of the mill Church of God Church. The successful ministries do things very differently than what the mainline of the Church of God is required to do by our overseer. The discipleship, marketing and even the church look are a very different product from the average sized Church of God church. Even when I looked to these large Church of God churches for guidance I soon discovered these guys don't go to State office to be trained. A lot of times they only involve themselves in state business like district overseer just to get the state off there back, or to not be controlled by the 50 member church that is involved in state politics. They operate with a pay the tithe of tithe tax mentality, or worse for fear of losing there church property. When I probe as to why a smaller church cannot do what the successful churches do, I get told they bring in the money so no one on the state office level interferes with them unless it is politically necessary. Then when I try to do the very same things that made this church successful, my organization fights me and nearly dismantles the progress I am trying to make for the sake of tradition. For example, how many here have had an overseer fight them for trying to take Church of God off the sign or name? Leading to the corniest phrase in churchdom SUCH AND SUCH CHURCH A Church of God Congregation. Or have had to get rid of their church logo because it was not the corny knock-off Church of God swoosh that we stole from the Methodist Church.



Our identity problem does not stop there. I noticed that we took a logo from Sam's club for our prayer initiative.





This is a very real problem with plenty of our more younger and successful pastors just leaving the denomination out of frustration. They think I send my tithe of tithes, but I get nothing in return but horrible brand micromanaging officials. Then, we act shocked when the congregation goes with the pastor when they decide enough is enough. This is because the organization really did not provide any real value to the relationship to the church except that they get money for missions and tithe of tithes. To quote one pastor friend that pulled out over ten years ago and is doing just fine said, The Church of God officials only contacted me twice the whole time I was in the organization. The first time because I broke the state tithe record and the second time when I stopped paying reports because of hardtimes. Also we have ministers like Perry Stone and Judy Jacobs starting ministry centers off the publicity the Church of God camp meetings gave them without sending off tithe of tithes or reports. I recently witnessed an overseer, fight for a licensed Church of God minister, a job at one of our larger churches, whose current church would not join the Church of God because of the tithe of tithe issue. He told that overseer I will help your organization as much as you help me.


I love all these people very dearly and believe they have been strongly used of God. But, just to prove my point, let�s go to Bryan Cutshall's former churchs website http://trwc.com There is not one mention of the Church of God anywhere on the site. Let's go to Mount Paran Church of God's website. http://mountparan.com They call themselves Mount Paran Church. I had to go to the history page to even find a mention of the Church of God. Even Loran Livingston tries to call his church Central Church, but I guess someone got on him and forced him to change his church sign in the parking lot to Central Church Church of God. Just look at his website http://www.centralchurchofgod.org. It is in the website name, but on the homepage, the church is named Central Church. Pastor Marty Baker of Stevens Creek has no mention of the Church of God on his website http://www.stevenscreekchurch.com/ , and when you Google his church, Google even has him wrongly listed as Church of Christ.



Then when you check to even see why they got involved in denominational politics it was for 1 of 2 reasons #1 they wanted the overseer to leave them alone and let them pastor their church, or #2 they are afraid if the wrong person comes to power on a state or international level and the church they are in is on hard times they will lose their church though politics because church of God property is deeded to the denomination. They are involved out of fear. They may lose everything they have worked for. Some are in politics for the right reason, but many others are there because of fear. I believe Jentezen Franklin is in our organization for the right reasons. It scares some people that he is there because the hierarchy of our organization does not control his church. This is because his church campuses in Georgia are congressional holiness his satellite campus in California is Church of God. My prayer is he gets traction enough to turn the tide before it is too late.

Also if you look at these churches some of them have very little to do with state events or youth camp. They usually do things just for their church alone. Just recently I came across a horror story where a kids and youth department of a church were told by the state youth director that they had no use for them unless they go to camp. Why would anyone want their youth and kids exposed to legalism. My only experience with youth camp was my kids being forced to listen to a 20 minute sermon on why mixed bathing is a sin before entering the camp ground swimming pool. It was not the moving services or the altar calls that were remembered from that week. It was the fear of parents thinking they were in a cult because of all that they encountered on that fateful weekend. I know we don't need to be a seeker sensitive movement, but on the other hand we cannot be a legalism sensitive movement either.

Recently, I heard an overseer whom I love and respect dearly; talk about how tough and dire the situation of relevance is in the Church of God. The average age of a minister in that state was early 50's and there is only one senior pastor in the entire state that was under the age of 34 and that person was an official's kid. There is nothing wrong with an officials kid having a chance. In fact this kid can preach very well and I am behind him 110% lets help him all we can, but what about all the others the same age not allowed the same opportunities all across our organization? I can pretty much bet the officials kid plays by a very different set of rules because their family makes the rules. We all need to have the same opportunities. This kid is doing a great job. I just want to see more have the same chance. We have to give our younger ministers a chance. Just recently I heard an old timer talk about how it was not uncommon for those in their late teens, early 20s to preach in the church. They went further to say that now it was almost unheard of. I believe Dr. T.L Lowery started ministry in his teens. Some of our greatest started young because the organization allowed that. I think we need to listen to the group that is coming up before it is too late.


Last edited by cogpastorwve on 6/22/16 10:24 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Are ya wantin one a them blue light specials? Acts-pert Poster
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Post Re: Is the Church of God going the way of Kmart?(link) (Image) krista
cogpastorwve wrote:
Is the Church of God going the way of Kmart?(link) (Image)

Every time you turn on the T.V. news, you hear about the decline of the once notable American business. Kmart stores are closing all across America. The business side of me wants to ask why. What goes into the anatomy of a declining business that at one time was very successful? Then I had a friend at a large, successful non-denominational church recommend the movie �When God Left the Building�. This movie chronicled the decline of the church in America and what we can do to salvage Christianity in our nation before it is too late. (Here is a link to watch the trailer http://www.whengodleftthebuilding.com ) This movie got me thinking about the present state of my church and even more so what my organization is doing to help me fix it. Then a light bulb went off in my head. I feel like I am a manager at Kmart. No matter how hard I work or how well of a job I am doing, my organization is still crashing because I am not given the tools to be successful.

Kmart�s demise is a result of not responding to a market with modernization. When you walk into a Kmart, look at the marketing materials look at the things the corporation has a hand in. The branding they have is very out of touch. It is either so far behind that it looks like the sign was dragged out of the bottom of the store room from where it sat in the 80s, or they brand so idealistically with overselling that it does not match anything that they sell. From a middle management level, how do you fix the problem with the tools you are given? This is how out of touch Kmart is. When my wife and I walked into a store, we noticed the electronics department was still called Music and Video with the logo of a CD and videocassette� No one buys music at a physical store any more, and the videocassette is dead. It has been long replaced by DVD, Blu-ray and Internet streaming services like YouTube and Netflix. How can you still have the advertisement of 1999 and still be considered competitive?

Kmart�s marketing and branding is dead. I have not walked into a Kmart in the last fifteen years and said; hey they are doing something right. In reality, every time I have walked in a Kmart, I was thinking, why didn�t I just go to Wal-Mart? Even better, I wish they would do some things like Target. Wal-Mart and Target in the late 80s were not the success story you hear about today. Kmart was still a large player in the department store landscape at that time. Kmart had just the same opportunities as Wal-Mart or Target. Kmart, in reality, had more opportunity because they were a market leader at that time. Kmart made one HUGE MISTAKE. They would not invest in a new computerized inventory system. They had huge backlash and rebellion from their management not to go with computers. They claimed that paper inventory was more reliable. In reality, management was intimidated by a technology they did not understand and could not fathom how this technology was about to change the very way of how they did business.

Both Target and Wal-Mart were investing in computers. They eventually could keep inventory of everything electronically and could tell when they were running low on something when a customer checked out of the store. Kmart still had to have employees with pens and clipboards walk the aisle and do inventory by hand. This created a huge gap in Kmart�s ability to compete; and they eventually fell to the point where they are today. They had to cut prices with the same cost when everyone else was cutting cost because of saving money.

Don�t get me wrong; we have some very successful churches just like Kmart has successful stores. It is just our successful ministries do not reflect the average run of the mill Church of God Church. The successful ministries do things very differently than what the mainline of the Church of God is required to do by our overseer. The discipleship, marketing and even the church look are a very different product from the average sized Church of God church. Even when I looked to these large Church of God churches for guidance I soon discovered these guys don�t go to �State office� to be �trained.� A lot of times they only involve themselves in state business like district overseer just to get the state off there back, or to not be controlled by the 50 member church that is involved in state politics. They operate with a pay the tithe of tithe tax mentality, or worse for fear of losing there church property. When I probe as to why a smaller church cannot do what the successful churches do, I get told they bring in the money so no one on the state office level interferes with them unless it is politically necessary. Then when I try to do the very same things that made this church successful, my organization fights me and nearly dismantles the progress I am trying to make for the sake of tradition. For example, how many here have had an overseer fight them for trying to take Church of God off the sign or name? Leading to the corniest phrase in churchdom SUCH AND SUCH CHURCH �A Church of God Congregation.� Or have had to get rid of their church logo because it was not the corny knock-off Church of God swoosh that we stole from the Methodist Church.
https://goo.gl/photos/EXG4ZtZGa48xe4Vw9
https://goo.gl/photos/SNghaarnVzJgMsv6A

Our identity problem does not stop there. I noticed that we took a logo from Sam�s club for our prayer initiative.
https://goo.gl/photos/1tibmBgdQyK67AwTA
https://goo.gl/photos/tvMKHvVnbEw4k6vB6


This is a very real problem with plenty of our more younger and successful pastors just leaving the denomination out of frustration. They think I send my tithe of tithes, but I get nothing in return but horrible brand micromanaging officials. Then, we act shocked when the congregation goes with the pastor when they decide enough is enough. This is because the organization really did not provide any real value to the relationship to the church except that they get money for missions and tithe of tithes. To quote one pastor friend that pulled out over ten years ago and is doing just fine said, �The Church of God officials only contacted me twice the whole time I was in the organization. The first time because I broke the state tithe record and the second time when I stopped paying reports because of hardtimes�. Also we have ministers like Perry Stone and Judy Jacobs starting ministry centers off the publicity the Church of God camp meetings gave them without sending off tithe of tithes or reports. I recently witnessed an overseer, fight for a licensed Church of God minister, a job at one of our larger churches, whose current church would not join the Church of God because of the tithe of tithe issue. He told that overseer I will help your organization as much as you help me.


I love all these people very dearly and believe they have been strongly used of God. But, just to prove my point, let�s go to Bryan Cutshall�s former church�s website http://trwc.com There is not one mention of the Church of God anywhere on the site. Let�s go to Mount Paran Church of God�s website. http://mountparan.com .They call themselves Mount Paran Church. I had to go to the history page to even find a mention of the Church of God. Even Loran Livingston tries to call his church Central Church, but I guess someone got on him and forced him to change his church sign in the parking lot to �Central Church Church of God�. Just look at his website http://www.centralchurchofgod.org. It is in the website name, but on the homepage, the church is named Central Church. Pastor Marty Baker of Stevens Creek has little mention of the Church of God, and when you Google his church, Google even has him wrongly listed as Church of Christ.

https://goo.gl/photos/FMmvoEQftcPgEkLM8

Then when you check to even see why they got involved in denominational politics it was for 1 of 2 reasons #1 they wanted the overseer to leave them alone and let them pastor their church, or #2 they are afraid if the wrong person comes to power on a state or international level and the church they are in is on hard times they will lose their church though politics because church of God property is deeded to the denomination. They are involved out of fear. They may lose everything they have worked for. Some are in politics for the right reason, but many others are there because of fear. I believe Jentezen Franklin is in our organization for the right reasons. It scares some people that he is there because the hierarchy of our organization does not control his church. This is because his church campuses in Georgia are congressional holiness his satellite campus in California is Church of God. My prayer is he gets traction enough to turn the tide before it is too late.

Also if you look at these churches some of them have very little to do with state events or youth camp. They usually do things just for their church alone. Just recently I came across a horror story where a kids and youth department of a church were told by the state youth director that they had no use for them unless they go to camp. Why would anyone want their youth and kids exposed to legalism. My only experience with youth camp was my kids being forced to listen to a 20 minute sermon on why mixed bathing is a sin before entering the camp ground swimming pool. It was not the moving services or the altar calls that were remembered from that week. It was the fear of parents thinking they were in a cult because of all that they encountered on that fateful weekend. I know we don't need to be a seeker sensitive movement, but on the other hand we can be a legalism sensitive movement either.

Recently, I heard an overseer whom I love and respect dearly; talk about how tough and dire the situation of relevance is in the Church of God. The average age of a minister in that state was early 50�s and there is only one senior pastor in the entire state that was under the age of 34 and that person was an official's kid. There is nothing wrong with an officials kid having a chance. In fact this kid can preach very well and I am behind him 110% lets help him all we can, but what about all the others the same age not allowed the same opportunities all across our organization? I can pretty much bet the official�s kid plays by a very different set of rules because their family makes the rules. We all need to have the same opportunities. This kid is doing a great job. I just want to see more have the same chance. We have to give our younger ministers a chance. Just recently I heard an old timer talk about how it was not uncommon for those in their late teens, early 20s to preach in the church. They went further to say that now it was almost unheard of. I believe Dr. T.L Lowery started ministry in his teens. Some of our greatest started young because the organization allowed that. I think we need to listen to the group that is coming up before it is too late.[/url]


You really don't expect anyone to read this do you?
Way.....waaaayyyy to long.
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6/21/16 4:04 pm


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Post Change Agent
Enjoyed this post. Negative but truthful in my opinion.

Know of one COG in my area built around 1987. It was a beautiful facility when it was built. Not one thing has changed in the building or in the parking lot since its construction. It still has the original paving which is in need of repair. It has the same carpet and pews. No one ever talks about the need for updating. However the pastors since 1987 have been well paid and have used a church parsonage which was also built in 1987.

It does look like the KMart in your article. We also have many more churches in this area that have closed or in the same state as the above mentioned church.
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6/21/16 9:13 pm


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Post Excellent tryingtofitin
Where's the "Like" "Love" button when you need one?

It may be long Krista but well worth the read. I suggest it be taken to the GA and read on the floor....
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Post Very good! Aaron Scott
I am old school about retaining our name on church signs, etc., but this post hit home on a number of things. I probably need a checklist to help me ensure that I am following best practices. Keep up the good work of making us think and rethink what we are doing. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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Post Very Good Post famousflavius
This post is very accurate, timely and true. Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
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Post K-Mart first hand 4thgeneration
I was an employee of Kmart back in their heyday, working at one of their distribution centers. I distinctly remember a big meeting where a corporate guy came to give a speech and entertain questions. One question was, "What is Kmart doing about Walmart and their expansion?" His response, "Walmart isn't a drop in the bucket to Kmart. We aren't worried about what they are doing."

So, Kmart sat on old stores and old strategies while Walmart moved in with a fresh approach, new facilities, and a great appeal. Today we see the result. The distribution center I worked at is closed and the property for sale, as are many of their stores. That competitor that wasn't "a drop in the bucket" has now taken the bucket and left the leader empty-handed.

Arrogant leadership that ignored the trends and the competition created the atmosphere that is now bringing the downfall of a once giant in the retail industry. Promoting people into leading positions who were unskilled and ill equipped resulted in foolish ideas that wasted time, space and energy, and offered no solution to keeping Kmart going forward as a growing corporation. Thinking they were too big to fall, and thus too big to waste time worrying about the other "mart" led to the inability to see clearly the signs of trouble in time to make adjustments before they were falling off the edge of the cliff. And leaders whose greatest goal was their own position and power, what the company could do for them, seeded that mentality throughout the company. So no one was thinking about how to make Kmart great again, everyone was just interested in their piece of the pie... until the pie ran out.

And so, a giant has fallen. Not yet completely dead, but likely to not get up and in the fight again.

Thinking you are too big to fall, sets you up to fall. Thinking it isn't important what others around you are doing that are seeing growth, sets you up for decline. Thinking the wrong people will set in place the right strategies for increase makes room for wasted precious time/resources/energy to strip out all initiative to be better. Thinking you can ignore the trends and the market is a huge step toward closing the doors. Positioning leaders who care more about position and what they get out of the deal, only facilitates the consumption of the pie... until it is gone. And then everyone is left with nothing.
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Post Business Model Mentality diakoneo
Perhaps it is neither K-Mart nor Wal-Mart.

Maybe it is Amazon. Amazon is the Wal-Mart of tomorrow.

But someone may come along and beat Amazon. Ebay may change strategy more to compete with Amazon and surpass them. In other words in a few years Wal-Mart may be closing their doors.

The church has been around for 2000 years. A good bit longer than Wal-Mart or K-Mart. Christ is eternal. What am I saying? I am saying that the whole use of a business model for churches is flawed. The Church is founded on the Rock and the stone the builder rejected. We spend much time considering not that which has been rejected by the world, Christ, but rather only what people "perceive they need."

It is a marketing strategy that works in the business world. It has also translated in the church world "successfully" in mega churches. Given the right model for the right market with the right managers, it will take off and give big numbers. Everyone wants to be part of something successful, right? But today's success depends on using the correct model for the correct market with the right managers and if anything changes then those things will have to be tweaked.

If we continue to use the business model, we better be prepared to tweak it as needed. Or we could just turn to Christ. We could just be led by the Holy Spirit. I am not saying these people who would want to use business models to increase performance are not used by God, I am saying the mixture frustrates God's people. When we put the yoke of Harvard Business school on ourselves, we should expect nothing else. Jesus said, "take my yoke upon you, my yoke is easy, my burden is light." How can we be yoked with a world system and expect less?

Success in the world's eye (numbers) can occur but with great price. Burned out pastors, resources used on facilities and managers that could be used on missions. Yes people are being saved, but I wonder how many more if pastors didn't become jaded or immoral due to the process. If much of the money spent on managers and facilities was spent on missions?
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Post bonnie knox
Diakoneo, I appreciate your post. I started to post that I felt some vague unease about using a business model as a comparison, but I'm out of my element in the things being discussed here.
I do remember one incident that happened in a church I used to attend. There was a man who started attending our church who seem to have money and connections. He said he had connections to an organization that could help us financially. As a group, we were falling all over ourselves writing a proposal for the grant money. I wanted to express doubts that the foundation in question would ever grant money to a Pentecostal (though nondenominational) group, but we had WOF word police, so I durst not express my thoughts. The man took our pastor to lunch and explained to our pastor how we needed to operate our church on more of a business model. Next thing you know, our pastor was explaining from the pulpit that we would begin operating our church on a business model. (I was figuratively rolling my eyes.)
Ultimately, we found out the man was not at all who he claimed to be and did not have the connections he claimed to have.
Funny and sad all at the same time.
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Post Quiet Wyatt
I think most of your small CoGs (which is the overwhelming majority of CoG churches) are more akin to Mom-and-Pop stores. For which, there's definitely a lot to be said.

Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 6/22/16 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Nature Boy Florida
Perhaps listening to the Holy Spirit led someone to adopt a business model - since that is how many folks relate best.

How does using a particular model preclude the Holy Spirit leading one there?

And does doing something the way it was always done mean you are following the Holy Spirit - or were just too lazy to realize the Holy Spirit had moved - but you didn't?
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Post diakoneo
If you are going to use something that is for the most part flesh driven, you will have to own it completely. Tweak it when necessary. Sweat over it. Revise it often. Maintain it. It can be very rewarding, of course. You can see with your eyes fantastic results, but don't fold you arms too long. Another Amazon maybe right on your heels!

Someone else can always build a better mousetrap. What is "hot" today is cold tomorrow.

There is much pride in a lot of what goes on in the "church growth" movement. If we are all the body of Christ, then it would pain us when a part of the body is hurting. We wouldn't look down at those who are the perceived "K-Mart" churches and go "ha ha, they just don't get it".

A competitive business like environment has been created in the body of Christ. Something is not right about that.
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Post So, Krisita Mark Ledbetter
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Post Re: Is the Church of God going the way of Kmart?(link) (Image) cogpastorwve
krista wrote:
cogpastorwve wrote:
Is the Church of God going the way of Kmart?(link) (Image)

Every time you turn on the T.V. news, you hear about the decline of the once notable American business. Kmart stores are closing all across America. The business side of me wants to ask why. What goes into the anatomy of a declining business that at one time was very successful? Then I had a friend at a large, successful non-denominational church recommend the movie �When God Left the Building�. This movie chronicled the decline of the church in America and what we can do to salvage Christianity in our nation before it is too late. (Here is a link to watch the trailer http://www.whengodleftthebuilding.com ) This movie got me thinking about the present state of my church and even more so what my organization is doing to help me fix it. Then a light bulb went off in my head. I feel like I am a manager at Kmart. No matter how hard I work or how well of a job I am doing, my organization is still crashing because I am not given the tools to be successful.

Kmart�s demise is a result of not responding to a market with modernization. When you walk into a Kmart, look at the marketing materials look at the things the corporation has a hand in. The branding they have is very out of touch. It is either so far behind that it looks like the sign was dragged out of the bottom of the store room from where it sat in the 80s, or they brand so idealistically with overselling that it does not match anything that they sell. From a middle management level, how do you fix the problem with the tools you are given? This is how out of touch Kmart is. When my wife and I walked into a store, we noticed the electronics department was still called Music and Video with the logo of a CD and videocassette� No one buys music at a physical store any more, and the videocassette is dead. It has been long replaced by DVD, Blu-ray and Internet streaming services like YouTube and Netflix. How can you still have the advertisement of 1999 and still be considered competitive?

Kmart�s marketing and branding is dead. I have not walked into a Kmart in the last fifteen years and said; hey they are doing something right. In reality, every time I have walked in a Kmart, I was thinking, why didn�t I just go to Wal-Mart? Even better, I wish they would do some things like Target. Wal-Mart and Target in the late 80s were not the success story you hear about today. Kmart was still a large player in the department store landscape at that time. Kmart had just the same opportunities as Wal-Mart or Target. Kmart, in reality, had more opportunity because they were a market leader at that time. Kmart made one HUGE MISTAKE. They would not invest in a new computerized inventory system. They had huge backlash and rebellion from their management not to go with computers. They claimed that paper inventory was more reliable. In reality, management was intimidated by a technology they did not understand and could not fathom how this technology was about to change the very way of how they did business.

Both Target and Wal-Mart were investing in computers. They eventually could keep inventory of everything electronically and could tell when they were running low on something when a customer checked out of the store. Kmart still had to have employees with pens and clipboards walk the aisle and do inventory by hand. This created a huge gap in Kmart�s ability to compete; and they eventually fell to the point where they are today. They had to cut prices with the same cost when everyone else was cutting cost because of saving money.

Don�t get me wrong; we have some very successful churches just like Kmart has successful stores. It is just our successful ministries do not reflect the average run of the mill Church of God Church. The successful ministries do things very differently than what the mainline of the Church of God is required to do by our overseer. The discipleship, marketing and even the church look are a very different product from the average sized Church of God church. Even when I looked to these large Church of God churches for guidance I soon discovered these guys don�t go to �State office� to be �trained.� A lot of times they only involve themselves in state business like district overseer just to get the state off there back, or to not be controlled by the 50 member church that is involved in state politics. They operate with a pay the tithe of tithe tax mentality, or worse for fear of losing there church property. When I probe as to why a smaller church cannot do what the successful churches do, I get told they bring in the money so no one on the state office level interferes with them unless it is politically necessary. Then when I try to do the very same things that made this church successful, my organization fights me and nearly dismantles the progress I am trying to make for the sake of tradition. For example, how many here have had an overseer fight them for trying to take Church of God off the sign or name? Leading to the corniest phrase in churchdom SUCH AND SUCH CHURCH �A Church of God Congregation.� Or have had to get rid of their church logo because it was not the corny knock-off Church of God swoosh that we stole from the Methodist Church.
https://goo.gl/photos/EXG4ZtZGa48xe4Vw9
https://goo.gl/photos/SNghaarnVzJgMsv6A

Our identity problem does not stop there. I noticed that we took a logo from Sam�s club for our prayer initiative.
https://goo.gl/photos/1tibmBgdQyK67AwTA
https://goo.gl/photos/tvMKHvVnbEw4k6vB6


This is a very real problem with plenty of our more younger and successful pastors just leaving the denomination out of frustration. They think I send my tithe of tithes, but I get nothing in return but horrible brand micromanaging officials. Then, we act shocked when the congregation goes with the pastor when they decide enough is enough. This is because the organization really did not provide any real value to the relationship to the church except that they get money for missions and tithe of tithes. To quote one pastor friend that pulled out over ten years ago and is doing just fine said, �The Church of God officials only contacted me twice the whole time I was in the organization. The first time because I broke the state tithe record and the second time when I stopped paying reports because of hardtimes�. Also we have ministers like Perry Stone and Judy Jacobs starting ministry centers off the publicity the Church of God camp meetings gave them without sending off tithe of tithes or reports. I recently witnessed an overseer, fight for a licensed Church of God minister, a job at one of our larger churches, whose current church would not join the Church of God because of the tithe of tithe issue. He told that overseer I will help your organization as much as you help me.


I love all these people very dearly and believe they have been strongly used of God. But, just to prove my point, let�s go to Bryan Cutshall�s former church�s website http://trwc.com There is not one mention of the Church of God anywhere on the site. Let�s go to Mount Paran Church of God�s website. http://mountparan.com .They call themselves Mount Paran Church. I had to go to the history page to even find a mention of the Church of God. Even Loran Livingston tries to call his church Central Church, but I guess someone got on him and forced him to change his church sign in the parking lot to �Central Church Church of God�. Just look at his website http://www.centralchurchofgod.org. It is in the website name, but on the homepage, the church is named Central Church. Pastor Marty Baker of Stevens Creek has little mention of the Church of God, and when you Google his church, Google even has him wrongly listed as Church of Christ.

https://goo.gl/photos/FMmvoEQftcPgEkLM8

Then when you check to even see why they got involved in denominational politics it was for 1 of 2 reasons #1 they wanted the overseer to leave them alone and let them pastor their church, or #2 they are afraid if the wrong person comes to power on a state or international level and the church they are in is on hard times they will lose their church though politics because church of God property is deeded to the denomination. They are involved out of fear. They may lose everything they have worked for. Some are in politics for the right reason, but many others are there because of fear. I believe Jentezen Franklin is in our organization for the right reasons. It scares some people that he is there because the hierarchy of our organization does not control his church. This is because his church campuses in Georgia are congressional holiness his satellite campus in California is Church of God. My prayer is he gets traction enough to turn the tide before it is too late.

Also if you look at these churches some of them have very little to do with state events or youth camp. They usually do things just for their church alone. Just recently I came across a horror story where a kids and youth department of a church were told by the state youth director that they had no use for them unless they go to camp. Why would anyone want their youth and kids exposed to legalism. My only experience with youth camp was my kids being forced to listen to a 20 minute sermon on why mixed bathing is a sin before entering the camp ground swimming pool. It was not the moving services or the altar calls that were remembered from that week. It was the fear of parents thinking they were in a cult because of all that they encountered on that fateful weekend. I know we don't need to be a seeker sensitive movement, but on the other hand we can be a legalism sensitive movement either.

Recently, I heard an overseer whom I love and respect dearly; talk about how tough and dire the situation of relevance is in the Church of God. The average age of a minister in that state was early 50�s and there is only one senior pastor in the entire state that was under the age of 34 and that person was an official's kid. There is nothing wrong with an officials kid having a chance. In fact this kid can preach very well and I am behind him 110% lets help him all we can, but what about all the others the same age not allowed the same opportunities all across our organization? I can pretty much bet the official�s kid plays by a very different set of rules because their family makes the rules. We all need to have the same opportunities. This kid is doing a great job. I just want to see more have the same chance. We have to give our younger ministers a chance. Just recently I heard an old timer talk about how it was not uncommon for those in their late teens, early 20s to preach in the church. They went further to say that now it was almost unheard of. I believe Dr. T.L Lowery started ministry in his teens. Some of our greatest started young because the organization allowed that. I think we need to listen to the group that is coming up before it is too late.[/url]


You really don't expect anyone to read this do you?
Way.....waaaayyyy to long.



you are funny read it now i got the pictures working Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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6/22/16 10:26 pm


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Post cogpastorwve
Change Agent wrote:
Enjoyed this post. Negative but truthful in my opinion.

Know of one COG in my area built around 1987. It was a beautiful facility when it was built. Not one thing has changed in the building or in the parking lot since its construction. It still has the original paving which is in need of repair. It has the same carpet and pews. No one ever talks about the need for updating. However the pastors since 1987 have been well paid and have used a church parsonage which was also built in 1987.

It does look like the KMart in your article. We also have many more churches in this area that have closed or in the same state as the above mentioned church.


sorry, i did not mean for it to sound negative.. I just wanted to open dialogue if i hurt anyone i am sorry. I truly love this organization. I want to see it thrive. It is just i was not raised church of God and sometimes people that have been raised in the church of God don't realize that some things we do can be deem "weird by outsiders," and some of it is not normal. I am not talking about speaking in tongues that is fine we need more of the miraculous. I am talking about illegalism. There were quite a few times i ran into the weird Man made rules and it was by the grace of God that i didn't become disillusioned by it. We need to stop being a illegalism sensitive church. IF I ANOTHER COG PASTOR RANT ABOUT SEEKER SENSITIVITY I AM GONNA SCREAM. i got filled with the holy ghost because of seeker sensitive people. saul wasnt seeker sentive... but paul was!!!! look at the results
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6/22/16 10:35 pm


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Post cogpastorwve
Change Agent wrote:
Enjoyed this post. Negative but truthful in my opinion.

Know of one COG in my area built around 1987. It was a beautiful facility when it was built. Not one thing has changed in the building or in the parking lot since its construction. It still has the original paving which is in need of repair. It has the same carpet and pews. No one ever talks about the need for updating. However the pastors since 1987 have been well paid and have used a church parsonage which was also built in 1987.

It does look like the KMart in your article. We also have many more churches in this area that have closed or in the same state as the above mentioned church.


sorry, i did not mean for it to sound negative.. I just wanted to open dialogue if i hurt anyone i am sorry. I truly love this organization. I want to see it thrive. It is just i was not raised church of God and sometimes people that have been raised in the church of God don't realize that some things we do can be deem "weird by outsiders," and some of it is not normal. I am not talking about speaking in tongues that is fine we need more of the miraculous. I am talking about legalism. There were quite a few times i ran into the weird Man made rules and it was by the grace of God that i didn't become disillusioned by it. We need to stop being a legalism sensitive church. IF ANOTHER COG PASTOR RANT ABOUT SEEKER SENSITIVITY I AM GONNA SCREAM. i got filled with the holy ghost because of seeker sensitive people. saul wasnt seeker sensitive... but paul was!!!! look at the results
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6/22/16 10:38 pm


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Post Less than 9 percent of cog pastors under 40 cogpastorwve
Quoting Chris Moody

Age 20-30 3.62% Ministers, .62% pastors

Age 31-40 12.61% Ministers, 8.09% pastors

Age 41-50 19.98% Ministers, 21.85% pastors

Age 51-60 25.84% Ministers, 32.18% pastors

Age 61plus 37.95% Ministers, 37.27% pastors

Less than 9% of our pastors are under 40. Roughly 70% are 51 and over. The 20-30 numbers can be a little skewed because of many youth pastors and children pastors, etc. However, remember only 16% of our ministers are under 40.
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6/23/16 1:24 pm


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Post Charlie Earl
Sometimes feel more like Western Auto...
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6/26/16 8:14 pm


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Post Cojak
Charlie Earl wrote:
Sometimes feel more like Western Auto...


Shocked Confused .... Idea ... Cool
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6/26/16 9:43 pm


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