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 Church Changes and the Clogged Up System |
diakoneo |
Several years ago when a pastor needed to change or the church needed a change in pastor, the process was rather simple and straight forward. A church had a confidence vote every two years and the pastor would know how he stood with the church and the church could voice their opinion.
Next, the confidence vote was scrapped and the church was given a few names to vote on by the AB. This made the process smooth, but there was much political pandering going on. Large and small churches many times felt stuck. Some of these churches never got the opportunity to get pastors they wanted. Some pastors were never given church opportunities they felt they deserved.
Today we have a system that has stagnated many churches (especially smaller ones). Pastors who need to be moved are not moved. Churches that need pastors stay without pastors far too long. Why? A hybrid congregational model has developed where churches wait until Sunday morning to "try out" a new pastor. While this model has many good qualities, because it is a Sunday morning only interview process(in most cases) it is very slow. It is good because it gives the church an opportunity to view a potential pastor and pastor to interview a church. It is terribly slow because it is for the most part a Sunday morning only interview. That means a month(at least) for the FIRST set of potential pastors. Then voting and if the pastor that interviewed changes his mind...well it is back to square one. Many times there is a month or more before the first interview or the church may reject all interviewees....and we start over again. So many things can happen during this process to slow it down and they always do. Pastors can't always make it, so a Sunday gets skipped. When many people are involved many things can go wrong.
When it is all said and done, many times the church and pastor are still not a good fit. If you have ever hired someone for a job, you know that happens and there is the problem: it seems we have turned this process in to something very much flesh. Any person can be "good" for a couple of hours on a Sunday. Problem Church folks will dial it back for a couple of hours. But then the honeymoon ends  Those that are hiring try to make things as rosy as possible. The potential hire puts on his best suit and says all the right things. Two months later you both find out things were not near as great as was pretended. An employer can fire and employee can find new employment. Can you see the big difference using this type of system when we are talking about pastors and churches?
Administrative Bishops: have you talked to your pastors?
Do they like this process? Are churches doing better with this kind of system of placing pastors? Are you getting bogged down with too many churches without pastors?
I have not lived under the old way of confidence vote every two years with AB placing pastors. It seems to me a better alternative would be reading 2 or 3 resumes and some type of evaluation after 2 years from pastor and congregation.
All these ravings are from my personal observation, your is probably different, but I would like to hear it! |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
4/15/16 11:02 pm
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Cojak |
I will agree, tentatively. I have visited many small churches that needed a change. This was going to happen only if the pastor was to resign., opening a church. But that is not likely in today's economy.
To our shame we have allowed too many unqualified pastors to remain because many congregations will not approach the Overseer about a need for change. Folks today find it easier to 'find another church'.
It is complicated, but it is still true. We have too many pastors who should retire but financially cannot, because of poor planning. So they stay and pastor a stagnant church.
small churches need good shepherds, not just someone living on SS and what small tithe there is from the local church.
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Posts: 24277
4/16/16 12:23 am
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| Re: Church Changes and the Clogged Up System |
skinnybishop |
| diakoneo wrote: | Several years ago when a pastor needed to change or the church needed a change in pastor, the process was rather simple and straight forward. A church had a confidence vote every two years and the pastor would know how he stood with the church and the church could voice their opinion.
Next, the confidence vote was scrapped and the church was given a few names to vote on by the AB. This made the process smooth, but there was much political pandering going on. Large and small churches many times felt stuck. Some of these churches never got the opportunity to get pastors they wanted. Some pastors were never given church opportunities they felt they deserved.
Today we have a system that has stagnated many churches (especially smaller ones). Pastors who need to be moved are not moved. Churches that need pastors stay without pastors far too long. Why? A hybrid congregational model has developed where churches wait until Sunday morning to "try out" a new pastor. While this model has many good qualities, because it is a Sunday morning only interview process(in most cases) it is very slow. It is good because it gives the church an opportunity to view a potential pastor and pastor to interview a church. It is terribly slow because it is for the most part a Sunday morning only interview. That means a month(at least) for the FIRST set of potential pastors. Then voting and if the pastor that interviewed changes his mind...well it is back to square one. Many times there is a month or more before the first interview or the church may reject all interviewees....and we start over again. So many things can happen during this process to slow it down and they always do. Pastors can't always make it, so a Sunday gets skipped. When many people are involved many things can go wrong.
When it is all said and done, many times the church and pastor are still not a good fit. If you have ever hired someone for a job, you know that happens and there is the problem: it seems we have turned this process in to something very much flesh. Any person can be "good" for a couple of hours on a Sunday. Problem Church folks will dial it back for a couple of hours. But then the honeymoon ends :) Those that are hiring try to make things as rosy as possible. The potential hire puts on his best suit and says all the right things. Two months later you both find out things were not near as great as was pretended. An employer can fire and employee can find new employment. Can you see the big difference using this type of system when we are talking about pastors and churches?
Administrative Bishops: have you talked to your pastors?
Do they like this process? Are churches doing better with this kind of system of placing pastors? Are you getting bogged down with too many churches without pastors?
I have not lived under the old way of confidence vote every two years with AB placing pastors. It seems to me a better alternative would be reading 2 or 3 resumes and some type of evaluation after 2 years from pastor and congregation.
All these ravings are from my personal observation, your is probably different, but I would like to hear it! |
One of my favorite topics....the pastoral change system. I understand the frustration of churches who want a change...and pastors who need a change. I've thought about this a million times: Where do you put someone, when there is nowhere for them to go? Where do you put someone who asks for a move, but will only relocate within driving distance of their current residence? Again, I totally understand the frustration. I just don't know what can be done to create openings.
A former AB told me........"I've only moved X number of pastors this year. Bishop T has moved four times as many as me. Preachers here don't retire or move. They die eventually, but they don't move".
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Eddie Wiggins |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1055
4/16/16 8:42 pm
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diakoneo |
| Cojak wrote: | I will agree, tentatively. I have visited many small churches that needed a change. This was going to happen only if the pastor was to resign., opening a church. But that is not likely in today's economy.
To our shame we have allowed too many unqualified pastors to remain because many congregations will not approach the Overseer about a need for change. Folks today find it easier to 'find another church'.
It is complicated, but it is still true. We have too many pastors who should retire but financially cannot, because of poor planning. So they stay and pastor a stagnant church.
small churches need good shepherds, not just someone living on SS and what small tithe there is from the local church. |
The current "system" favors larger churches and we have more smaller churches that are getting smaller BECAUSE of the system. That is my observation. If the trend continues the smaller churches will die. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
4/17/16 7:40 am
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| Re: Church Changes and the Clogged Up System |
diakoneo |
| skinnybishop wrote: | | diakoneo wrote: | Several years ago when a pastor needed to change or the church needed a change in pastor, the process was rather simple and straight forward. A church had a confidence vote every two years and the pastor would know how he stood with the church and the church could voice their opinion.
Next, the confidence vote was scrapped and the church was given a few names to vote on by the AB. This made the process smooth, but there was much political pandering going on. Large and small churches many times felt stuck. Some of these churches never got the opportunity to get pastors they wanted. Some pastors were never given church opportunities they felt they deserved.
Today we have a system that has stagnated many churches (especially smaller ones). Pastors who need to be moved are not moved. Churches that need pastors stay without pastors far too long. Why? A hybrid congregational model has developed where churches wait until Sunday morning to "try out" a new pastor. While this model has many good qualities, because it is a Sunday morning only interview process(in most cases) it is very slow. It is good because it gives the church an opportunity to view a potential pastor and pastor to interview a church. It is terribly slow because it is for the most part a Sunday morning only interview. That means a month(at least) for the FIRST set of potential pastors. Then voting and if the pastor that interviewed changes his mind...well it is back to square one. Many times there is a month or more before the first interview or the church may reject all interviewees....and we start over again. So many things can happen during this process to slow it down and they always do. Pastors can't always make it, so a Sunday gets skipped. When many people are involved many things can go wrong.
When it is all said and done, many times the church and pastor are still not a good fit. If you have ever hired someone for a job, you know that happens and there is the problem: it seems we have turned this process in to something very much flesh. Any person can be "good" for a couple of hours on a Sunday. Problem Church folks will dial it back for a couple of hours. But then the honeymoon ends Those that are hiring try to make things as rosy as possible. The potential hire puts on his best suit and says all the right things. Two months later you both find out things were not near as great as was pretended. An employer can fire and employee can find new employment. Can you see the big difference using this type of system when we are talking about pastors and churches?
Administrative Bishops: have you talked to your pastors?
Do they like this process? Are churches doing better with this kind of system of placing pastors? Are you getting bogged down with too many churches without pastors?
I have not lived under the old way of confidence vote every two years with AB placing pastors. It seems to me a better alternative would be reading 2 or 3 resumes and some type of evaluation after 2 years from pastor and congregation.
All these ravings are from my personal observation, your is probably different, but I would like to hear it! |
One of my favorite topics....the pastoral change system. I understand the frustration of churches who want a change...and pastors who need a change. I've thought about this a million times: Where do you put someone, when there is nowhere for them to go? Where do you put someone who asks for a move, but will only relocate within driving distance of their current residence? Again, I totally understand the frustration. I just don't know what can be done to create openings.
A former AB told me........"I've only moved X number of pastors this year. Bishop T has moved four times as many as me. Preachers here don't retire or move. They die eventually, but they don't move". |
One of the greatest problems is that we really don't have a scripted way of doing things across the board. Every pastor and congregation should know exactly what to expect. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
4/17/16 7:43 am
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Da Sheik |
You raise some great points. I cannot tell you how many COG pastors I know personally who are frustrated with their churches. In many instances , I feel it is a compatibility problem. I have seen with smaller churches that the extent of the selection process is simply having a man come in to preach a sermon, asking a few questions after the service in a "meet & greet" and then repeating until you have heard 2 or 3 guys and then take a vote.
I don't think that's a sufficient amount of work prior to the appointment to determine how well the fit is. And invariably everyone (potential pastor and the interviewing congregation ) has their "best foot" forward. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
4/17/16 5:04 pm
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diakoneo |
| Da Sheik wrote: | You raise some great points. I cannot tell you how many COG pastors I know personally who are frustrated with their churches. In many instances , I feel it is a compatibility problem. I have seen with smaller churches that the extent of the selection process is simply having a man come in to preach a sermon, asking a few questions after the service in a "meet & greet" and then repeating until you have heard 2 or 3 guys and then take a vote.
I don't think that's a sufficient amount of work prior to the appointment to determine how well the fit is. And invariably everyone (potential pastor and the interviewing congregation ) has their "best foot" forward. |
Agreed.
What is happening is not a sufficient way of determining the right fit. We are trying to get things done in a church service and that is not enough time to really know pastor or congregation.
We do not need a one size fits all solution. Some churches are incapable of choosing a pastor. Other churches are capable, but lack opportunity. Still others have opportunity, capability and yet they are bogged down in this current system. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
4/18/16 5:53 pm
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| The telephone ministry |
JLarry |
I think the vote was every 4 years.
Here is something else to consider. When the "vote" was in process a pastor and the church may have been doing well. Then it comes time to vote and the phone ministry begins. Sis. Sally has a beef against the pastor because she does not think she gets enough visits so she call Sis. Mary. Sis. Mary starts to think she also has not had the visits she should.
The pastor is preaching the good Word of God. The services are good, the attendance is good, but Sis Sally and Sis. Mary thinks he does not visit enough. Now mind you, the pastor is spending time praying and preparing the Word, but the good sisters are not getting the visits they should. So they get involved in the phone ministry and before long all the good sisters are upset because they do not get enough visits.
Now the pastor who is doing what he should does not get a strong vote, even though he gets the majority and he thinks it is time to move on. The church and the pastor missed the mark.
I voted against a 4 year vote and would do it again.
_________________
Recorded Sermons @ www.pastorwiley.com
No one who died without Christ is happy about their decision. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
4/18/16 6:18 pm
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Da Sheik |
| Unfortunately, many of these changes are a done deal before the church has a chance to make their voices heard. Someone wants to make a move and they have a particular geographical area that they desire and they politic to make it a reality. I used to live in a tourist area and I saw this consistently. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
4/18/16 6:22 pm
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| As for the smaller church |
JLarry |
IMO it is the responsibility of the AB to check out the churches that have not grown in years.
I believe the AB should spend more time with them. Do an audit. See if it is the pastor, the music, the lack of youth, maybe a declining community or a community that is in transition.
I am thinking about a church that was once fairly strong. Now the area has transitioned from a white middle class community to a low income black community, nothing wrong with low income blacks or whites. The demographics have changed considerably and they have the same pastor they have had for several years.
If we do not change with our community we will quickly decline.
_________________
Recorded Sermons @ www.pastorwiley.com
No one who died without Christ is happy about their decision. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
4/18/16 6:24 pm
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| As for the smaller church |
JLarry |
IMO it is the responsibility of the AB to check out the churches that have not grown in years.
I believe the AB should spend more time with them. Do an audit. See if it is the pastor, the music, the lack of youth, maybe a declining community or a community that is in transition.
I am thinking about a church that was once fairly strong. Now the area has transitioned from a white middle class community to a low income black community, nothing wrong with low income blacks or whites. The demographics have changed considerably and they have the same pastor they have had for several years.
If we do not change with our community we will quickly decline.
_________________
Recorded Sermons @ www.pastorwiley.com
No one who died without Christ is happy about their decision. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
4/18/16 6:24 pm
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| As for the larger churches |
JLarry |
If you will do a study I think you will find, for the most part, that the majority of larger churches are pastored by long term pastors.
_________________
Recorded Sermons @ www.pastorwiley.com
No one who died without Christ is happy about their decision. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
4/18/16 6:26 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| The clogged up system primarily has to do with the fact that there are many more CoG preachers than there are churches in the Southeast. Go west if you're truly wanting to get an opportunity quickly. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
4/18/16 7:40 pm
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| Re: The telephone ministry |
diakoneo |
| JLarry wrote: | I think the vote was every 4 years.
Here is something else to consider. When the "vote" was in process a pastor and the church may have been doing well. Then it comes time to vote and the phone ministry begins. Sis. Sally has a beef against the pastor because she does not think she gets enough visits so she call Sis. Mary. Sis. Mary starts to think she also has not had the visits she should.
The pastor is preaching the good Word of God. The services are good, the attendance is good, but Sis Sally and Sis. Mary thinks he does not visit enough. Now mind you, the pastor is spending time praying and preparing the Word, but the good sisters are not getting the visits they should. So they get involved in the phone ministry and before long all the good sisters are upset because they do not get enough visits.
Now the pastor who is doing what he should does not get a strong vote, even though he gets the majority and he thinks it is time to move on. The church and the pastor missed the mark.
I voted against a 4 year vote and would do it again. |
I know the other system is flawed and I would not want it back either.
There should be a happy healthy middle, somewhere between constipation and well you know |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
4/18/16 11:01 pm
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diakoneo |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | The clogged up system primarily has to do with the fact that there are many more CoG preachers than there are churches in the Southeast. Go west if you're truly wanting to get an opportunity quickly. |
Go west young man, says Quiet Wyatt |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
4/18/16 11:02 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| diakoneo wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | The clogged up system primarily has to do with the fact that there are many more CoG preachers than there are churches in the Southeast. Go west if you're truly wanting to get an opportunity quickly. |
Go west young man, says Quiet Wyatt :) |
Yes, definitely! Come on out where the skies are so big you can't believe it. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
4/18/16 11:14 pm
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sheepdogandy |
“It is unto Christ that men can flee from the storms of life, and where there is a church that is led by the Spirit, this Christ will be lifted up, and lost and dying men will run in for safety.”—B.H. Clendennen
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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4/19/16 1:56 pm
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