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 Could Jesus have separated Divinity from Humanity |
Patrick Harris |
I'd like to briefly interrupt the political thoughts for a theological question.
Was Jesus able to completely separate his divinity from his humanity on earth?
I'm putting some notes together for a study on "The God who came to save" and in my devotional this morning the author I was reading seem to believe that if Jesus had died as the Son of God and not the Son of man there would have been no sacrifice for our sins.
Leading me to believe that the author thought they could be separated as a matter of choice.
Thoughts? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1323
4/5/16 7:52 am
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Resident Skeptic |
From the time I was first licensed with the AoG in 1986 until now, I have always belived the word "Son",in relation to Jesus,always denotes humanity and not deity. This is the case whether we call him Son of Man or Son of God.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
4/5/16 8:06 am
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| Re: Could Jesus have separated Divinity from Humanity |
Quiet Wyatt |
| Patrick Harris wrote: | I'd like to briefly interrupt the political thoughts for a theological question.
Was Jesus able to completely separate his divinity from his humanity on earth?
I'm putting some notes together for a study on "The God who came to save" and in my devotional this morning the author I was reading seem to believe that if Jesus had died as the Son of God and not the Son of man there would have been no sacrifice for our sins.
Leading me to believe that the author thought they could be separated as a matter of choice.
Thoughts? |
I'd need more context from the author to know if that is what he was trying to say, but if he was in fact saying or implying that Jesus could separate His Deity from His humanity, I must say that such an idea reveals a very unusual (and really absurd) Christology. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12803
4/5/16 8:44 am
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Patrick Harris |
In Gethsemane He feared lest He might not get through as Son of Man. He would get through as Son of God. Satan could not touch Him there; but Satans onslaught was that He would get through as an isolated Figure only; and that would mean that He could be no Saviour.
Here's the premise of the devotional that gave me that opinion of his thoughts. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1323
4/5/16 9:22 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Patrick Harris wrote: | In Gethsemane He feared lest He might not get through as Son of Man. He would get through as Son of God. Satan could not touch Him there; but Satans onslaught was that He would get through as an isolated Figure only; and that would mean that He could be no Saviour.
Here's the premise of the devotional that gave me that opinion of his thoughts. |
Ok. I'd have to say that guy has a really strange and absurd Christology, if he even has one at all. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12803
4/5/16 10:19 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Patrick Harris wrote: | In Gethsemane He feared lest He might not get through as Son of Man. He would get through as Son of God. Satan could not touch Him there; but Satans onslaught was that He would get through as an isolated Figure only; and that would mean that He could be no Saviour.
Here's the premise of the devotional that gave me that opinion of his thoughts. |
If I may ask, Patrick, who wrote this devotional? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
4/5/16 11:22 am
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Patrick Harris |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Patrick Harris wrote: | In Gethsemane He feared lest He might not get through as Son of Man. He would get through as Son of God. Satan could not touch Him there; but Satans onslaught was that He would get through as an isolated Figure only; and that would mean that He could be no Saviour.
Here's the premise of the devotional that gave me that opinion of his thoughts. |
If I may ask, Patrick, who wrote this devotional? |
Sure, it's in Oswald Chambers Utmost for his Highest, which makes it all the stranger. Great devotional, just the way he worded it made me think. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1323
4/5/16 11:28 am
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bradfreeman |
Heb. 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
Perhaps Chambers was alluding to the need for Christ to not only die for us but as us, but it was his BODY that was His sacrifice for sins.
Heb. 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“Sacrifice and offering You have not desired,
But a body You have prepared for Me;
Heb. 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb. 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
1 Pet 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
The Son of God and the Son of man were house in that body.
The first and the last were housed and hung there.
Heaven and earth were housed and hung there.
He died and we died there.
1 Cor. 15:45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
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He died and we died.
John 12:31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.
Rom. 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
2 Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
Col. 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”
Gal. 2:19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
He became sin (2 Cor. 5:21), poor (2 Cor. 8:9) and cursed (Gal. 3:13).
Rom. 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Phil. 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
4/6/16 5:33 am
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Resident Skeptic |
Yet, deity did not die on the cross. Deity cannot die.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
4/7/16 5:51 am
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maqqebet |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Yet, deity did not die on the cross. Deity cannot die. |
And yet the charge of deicide was just accusation against Jews whom they accused as killing Christ and were labeled as "Christ-killers" by the church, thus justifying persecution at the hands of the church.
In the fulness of time He was born of a woman, yet Jesus became God in the flesh as the Son of God.
The humanity and deity of Christ was thought settled long ago by ancient Church councils but the enigma still raises its riddle.
So, do we believe Jesus to be a bifurcation, the splitting of a main body into two parts - as Mary's son He is human, and as God's Son, He is divine?
Or do we believe Him to be the perfect union between the DNA from His biological mother and the "spiritual DNA" of His Father?
Paul tells us Jesus, though in preexistent status as a "form of God" did not see His position as something be asserted when He took on the likeness of man and became a bond-servant leading Him to be obedient until death on a cross.
He never seized executive privileges but deferred to His Father and the Mission. He had a destiny and though the flesh was weak in the garden His spirit was willing.
Jesus died on the cross as Mary's son, and as God's son. Both grieved His death.
While we attempt to sort out the details that are sometimes too deep to fathom, Jesus did what He did to fulfill the desire of His Father and complete the effects of His mission.
Through His Death and Resurrection we have the hope of redemption and the impartation of resurrection life. And we have the hope of His return.
So, in short: I don't know.
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The Hammer
Mi kamocah ba'elim Adonai
"Who is like you, Adonai, among the mighty?" (Exodus 15:11, CJB) |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1771
4/7/16 8:45 am
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Randy Johnson |
to empty, make empty
of Christ, he laid aside equality with or the form of God
to make void
deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect
to make void
cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
κενόω kenóō, ken-o'-o; from G2756; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify:—make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
4/8/16 8:04 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | to empty, make empty
of Christ, he laid aside equality with or the form of God
to make void
deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect
to make void
cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
κενόω kenóō, ken-o'-o; from G2756; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify:—make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain. |
The question is....was this emptying pre-incarnation or post-incarnation?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
4/9/16 10:34 am
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| He "laid aside His privileges" |
maqqebet |
Strong's is a good tool but it doesn't always catch the nuance of words in their context.
In Philippians 2:7, "but emptied Himself," denoting Jesus did not selfishly exploit His divinity, which He possessed before His Incarnation, but subordinated His own will to accomplish the desire and design of the Father.
The ultimate subordination was exemplified in His obedience unto death.
| Quote: | | "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so I may take it up again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." - John 10:17-18 |
In the Garden His humanity cried out for deliverance for the fate before Him but resigned Himself to the Father's will. He soon received His answer when the Temple Guards and Roman Cohort came to arrest Him. When Peter attempted a gallant defense, Jesus told him to put away his weapon, otherwise the Prophets' words would go unfulfilled (Matthew 26:36-56)
Here is the Perfect Example of a Servant, though Son of God, refused to assert His will or draw upon His "executive privileges" for His own enhancement. Submission to the Father even to death was His destiny in this life, but through His resurrection He was restored to His prominence which will one day be recognized by all.
If we buy into the gnostic notion Jesus divested His divinity at death, then we ignore the possibility it was His divinity that preserved Him in the tomb. It was not through His humanity that He seized the keys to death and hell, but it was through His divinity he rendered death powerless. It was by partaking in "flesh and blood" He gained access to the grave.
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The Hammer
Mi kamocah ba'elim Adonai
"Who is like you, Adonai, among the mighty?" (Exodus 15:11, CJB) |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1771
4/9/16 1:50 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
κενόω kenóō, ken-o'-o; from G2756; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify:—make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain. |
Uh Oh, Randy's done brought out the big guns here....... |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
4/9/16 3:44 pm
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| Kenow |
R. Keith Whitt |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | to empty, make empty
of Christ, he laid aside equality with or the form of God
to make void
deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect
to make void
cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false
Strong�s Definitions [?](Strong�s Definitions Legend)
κενόω ken�ō, ken-o'-o; from G2756; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify:�make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain. |
The question is....was this emptying pre-incarnation or post-incarnation? |
It would be impossible for Him to "empty" himself or deny who He is.
A better translation/understanding of kenow is that He willingly chose not to exercise those divine attributes which He possessed in order to accomplish His mission on earth.
Think of the implication for us....
Keith
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R. Keith Whitt |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 684
4/11/16 7:32 pm
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| Re: Kenow |
Resident Skeptic |
| R. Keith Whitt wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | to empty, make empty
of Christ, he laid aside equality with or the form of God
to make void
deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect
to make void
cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false
Strong�s Definitions [?](Strong�s Definitions Legend)
κενόω ken�ō, ken-o'-o; from G2756; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify:�make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain. |
The question is....was this emptying pre-incarnation or post-incarnation? |
It would be impossible for Him to "empty" himself or deny who He is.
A better translation/understanding of kenow is that He willingly chose not to exercise those divine attributes which He possessed in order to accomplish His mission on earth.
Think of the implication for us....
Keith |
Agreed.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
4/11/16 8:09 pm
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