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brotherjames

Wiilow Creek's admission that "We were wrong" (l)

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **2/4/16 6:07 pm**

Not wanting to be accused of hijacking another thread by my resident critic who trolls all my posts, I start a new thread.

After having lived through every church growth seminar of the 80's, 90's and 2000's and now, I have come to realize a fact. Every few years, the American Church in its desperate attempt to gain traction, tries to reinvent "church". The originator of this model was Willow Creek Church near Chicago. Their model was the "seeker sensitive " model of the 80-90's. It has been called various things since then, most recently missional. It is promulgated by mostly Clavinist, cessation driven theology based on worldly marketing that taught church leaders to meet the consumer with what the consumer wanted (felt needs) rather than teaching doctrine, bible study and intimacy with God. It replaced Starbucks for relationship with God.
This is not to say there are not things we can learn to do better in how we do church but in these models, we have primarily forgetten the admonition of the Lord that unless HE builds the church we labor in vain and these models leave no room for the supernatural much less Pentecostal values.

Back in 2007, Willow Creek had an ephinany and they wrote a book about it. It was called "We Were Wrong". What they discovered in a nutshell was that they had not made disciples but merely converts. Here is the link to an article describing their discovery.

http://www.christianheadlines.com/news/a-shocking-confession-from-willow-creek-community-church-11558438.html

Don't get sucked into the latest, greatest fad of doing church. Be as excellent as you can be in ministry, facilities etc. Dont ever stop learning, but be careful what you are learning and putting into your spirit. Be relevant but don't throw out the baby with bath water. Dance with the one that got you here, the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD and HIS DUNAMIS, SUPERNATURAL POWER. Seek His Presence, be a conduit of His Grace, love faith and power and He will build His church and the gates of hell will not prevail over you or His people.
You are blessed and you are the righteousness of God in Christ.

wayne

I am learning...

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **2/9/16 12:05 pm**

That loving people is a great way to win them. I am leading a class through the teachings and works of Jesus. We have been on this teaching "the Mind of Christ for almost a year now and the students(all ages) are viewing Jesus differently.

He is forgiving, loving, compassionate and He follows the commands of scripture and His Father.

Our church has noticed an influx of Catholics over the past year. One gentleman who is 72 years old came to me after I finished preaching this past Sunday. He said "Pastor, I have been in the Catholic faith my whole life and it's only been since coming to this church that I have truly felt accepted by God." He said "I feel loved and truly feel my past sins are forgiven." That made me almost cry.

Another gentleman who is the education director for the Catholic diocese and reports to the Arch Bishop of our area said, he has never felt so much enthusiasm and love from any church. He is afraid to tell the Bishop he has been attending our church for fear he will lose his job.

It's exciting to see that truly loving people is drawing them in.

MartyBaker

The Church of God and Willow Creek are very similar

Acts Mod Posts: 223 **2/12/16 10:43 am**

The previous post mentions a nine year old article about Willow Creek which says:

If you want solid, sincere, mature followers of Christ, it’s a bust. In a shocking confession, Hybels states:

We made a mistake. What we should have done when people crossed the line of faith and become Christians, we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become ‘self feeders.’ We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their bible between services, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own.

Incredibly, the guru of church growth now tells us that people need to be reading their bibles and taking responsibility for their spiritual growth.

Pentecostalism could learn some things about spiritual growth from this article and Willow Creek. The concept of "self feeders" is very important. I grew up in a time period where we went to services looking for an emotional experience and then the next week we came back for another one. Too many of our congregants equated Pentecostal emotionalism and spiritual growth to be synonymous, but they are not. We taught the importance of an experience instead of learning to be a servant, evangelizing our neighbors or being a light in the darkness.

Here's the positive thing about Willow Creek .... look at them today. They have changed. They are more Pentecostal than most Church of God congregations and they are still reaching seekers.

How has the Church of God changed since this article was published? How have we impacted the world?

Before we look down on the seeker sensitive movement, maybe we need to get our own house in order.

Marty

PS: And yes .... Stevens Creek is a Church of God, seeker sensitive church. Last month our average was over 2,100 and we are the second largest church in the only 6A State in the COG and yes, we are a member of the Willow Creek Association and the ARC.
_________________
-- Living the Dream

brotherjames

Marty

brotherjames · Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **2/12/16 11:43 am**

I appreciate your input and applaud your success in reaching people for Christ. However, if Willow Creek is more Pentecostal than most COG or AG churches then woe unto us as Pentecostals. I took over as pastor of a Willow Creek assoc.AG church 15 years ago. While we had great numbers we did not have disciples who read their Bibles, had few if any people filled with the Holy Spirit and no manifestations were allowed. That's the Willow Creek I was familiar with and the seeker movement in general. Big crowds but no Presence of God. As they say in Texas, all hat, no cattle. I know Willow Creek has changed but I would challenge your assertion that they are "more pentecostal" than the COG. If that's true it is only because our churches have lost their pentecostal distinctives. That was my point in posting an old article. Making disciples is key, teaching and knowing the Word is key, community is key, doing it relevently is key, doing church as excellently as possible is key but in the midst of that we must teach - model - and allow for a fullness of the Holy Spirit to manifest Himself in our services. Worship that is more than emotional but takes people into His Presence, prayer for the sick, the word of Prophecy and yes, even tongues and their interpretation have to be part of a Pentecostal service. I doubt seriously that Willow Creek allows that. It has taken me 15 years of teaching, modeling, encouraging and praying to turn this ship of a church back to the Spirit of God. Did we lose a few along the way, of course. Did we gain a bunch? Yep. There is a place for many types of churches. Willow Creek is a fine church but it's underlying doctrine and the doctrine of Ed Stetzer and so many of the teachers of that movement is Calvinism. Can we learn from their successes and midtakes, yes. But, let's not forget who we are. And I return to my original assertion, if Willow Creek is more Pentecostal than our churches I would 1) Be shocked 2) be saddened.
Blessings

brotherjames

Duplicate

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **2/12/16 11:51 am**

Deleted

Preacher777

Re: The Church of God and Willow Creek are very similar

Friendly Face Posts: 434 **2/14/16 9:31 pm**

[quote="MartyBaker"]The previous post mentions a nine year old article about Willow Creek which says:

[i]If you want solid, sincere, mature followers of Christ, itï¿½s a bust. In a shocking confession, Hybels states:

We made a mistake. What we should have done when people crossed the line of faith and become Christians, we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become ï¿½self feeders.ï¿½ We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their bible between services, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own.

Incredibly, the guru of church growth now tells us that people need to be reading their bibles and taking responsibility for their spiritual growth.[/i]

Pentecostalism could learn some things about spiritual growth from this article and Willow Creek. The concept of "self feeders" is very important. I grew up in a time period where we went to services looking for an emotional experience and then the next week we came back for another one. Too many of our congregants equated Pentecostal emotionalism and spiritual growth to be synonymous, but they are not. We taught the importance of an experience instead of learning to be a servant, evangelizing our neighbors or being a light in the darkness.

Here's the positive thing about Willow Creek .... look at them today. They have changed. They are more Pentecostal than most Church of God congregations and they are still reaching seekers. [/quote]
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Preacher 777 says: Sorry I can't get this quote box thing to work as I was trying to frame Marty Baker's quote above. I agree with the idea that being a "self feeder" is extremely important, one of if not the most important part of discipleship. However, I have been in touch on a personal level with the seeker friendly movement churches and also individuals. In my experience the seeker friendly Willow Creek style does not develop people who learn to pray and read their Bibles anywhere close to what I have known in a traditional Spirit-filled church.

I also believe that it is wrong for emotionalism to be equated with spiritual growth and to continually come to church looking for a new experience. I didn't accept Christ until I was 25 years old. I have often stated that I feel part of the draw for the seeker movement is that many pastors who grew up in the church became so tired of the ingrown emotionalism and weird stuff during their 30-40 years on earth that they went into a ditch on the other side of the road. Logic, business models that cater to consumer Christianity and seminars with leaders who are not Spirit filled replaced prayer meetings with other Spirit-filled Christians. I feel it is a reactionary trend similar to those who were raised in strict legalism going into the ditch on the other side of the road into gross amounts of make up, provocative dress, the extreme eye lashes etc.

I have pastored for the last 10 years and previously was a missionary-evangelist. If Marty is right and Willow Creek is more Pentecostal than most COG churches now I would like to know what you guys did wrong in the last 10 years so I could avoid doing it.

Previously I was in sales management in the medical profession. Obviously the seeker movement appeals to professional people. The upper income medical professionals I dealt with daily were much more likely to be involved with large seeker sensitive churches as compared to smaller Pentecostal churches. It was very hard to discuss the Bible with the seeker crowd (many in leadership positions at their churches) and it was obvious their spiritual depth was not the reason they were leading anything.

I spent a lot of time checking out the seeker movement Willow Creek approach and as a missionary-evangelist had pastor friends who were into it in a big way, ministered there, hung out with them etc. They had some very nice people in their churches. However, one would not want to know and calculate the hours that were spent in seminars, practicing the arts, music, skits etc. as compared to minutes spent together in prayer.

I only share this because it breaks my hear to see co-workers, friends and relatives feel they are in the "happening seeker church" and never grow spiritually. I know many who have been involved for 10 years or more (not new seekers) and have never spent 20 minutes in a prayer meeting let alone an hour.

I shared a lot of my experiences but if time allowed I could also share why I feel the seeker movement is off from a doctrinal perspective. A simple question is to ask is how one can read the Book of Acts and try to do contemporary evangelism that is void of REPENTANCE. I also ask where Jesus, Paul or the other church leaders begged and pushed people with emotional methods to be considered a believer without counting the cost and turning their whole lives over to God (to be fair the seeker sensitive movement isn't the only group offering comfortable partial commitment salvations). Would Jesus exclude hell from His messages if he were to try reaching Americans in 2016?

MartyBaker

Re: The Church of God and Willow Creek | Follow-up

Acts Mod Posts: 223 **2/15/16 9:05 am**

As you know I am not trying to pick a theological fight, I sincerely believe that the Church of God is not in a healthy place. The Church of God congregations that are exploding in growth look more like Willow Creek than they do the Abbeville Church of God (my home church.)

Here's why the Church of God is not healthy .... The Day of Pentecost focused on evangelism ..3,000 people saved and then multitudes. If a church does not focus on evangelism, then that church is not a true Pentecostal church.

In 1992, Stevens Creek Church was known as Church of the Harvest - Augusta. We averaged less than 100 people. I was frustrated because I was over four years into my tenure and we were not growing. As I prayed, the Lord said, "Marty, I have called you to reach lost people and you are not doing it." I responded, "Lord, I don't know how."

Shortly after that we connected with Willow Creek. They taught us how to reach beyond ourselves and lead people to Christ. Things did not change over-night, but through their leadership and the Lord's anointing, our congregation has won hundreds of people to the Lord.

You mentioned spiritual growth ... here's what we do. Almost every week, I encourage daily Bible reading. Yesterday, I said, "Go to the app store and download the Stevens Creek app and click on the One Year Bible tab." Our people actually do it.

Next, every year we sponsor two periods of "21 Days of Prayer." In January and in August, we meet at the church every day and seek the Lord. Not only that, but we simulcast the Willow Creek Leadership Summit for our staff and volunteers every August.

The people who say that Willow is not spiritual ... those people are not on the inside of Willow Creek.

On the other side, the Church of God in North Georgia has closed as many churches in our conference as we have started. I support the leadership and they have made the correct decision, but the facts are clear. Our churches are not reaching lost people and as a result, they do not have the people and without new members their ministries cannot make their payments and stay in business.

We need to go back to the Day of Pentecost and reach the lost.

- Marty
_________________
-- Living the Dream

philunderwood

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3954 **2/15/16 12:12 pm**

BroJames, Preacher777 & Marty...

Everyone is right here...many WC model churches did NOT have the core convictions that WC had to challenge themselves and look below the surface. For many, not for WC, it was just a growth system that attracted people who wanted church without the commitment. And we let them have that.

WC never was about that. They always talked the "5 G's", small group involvement, had hurdles to membership, etc. Still, people, as they found, were not 'getting it' and leaving the narrow pathway of the life of following Jesus in word, deed and love.

WC always measured different metrics and that, in itself, is what led to 'Reveal.' Even in their gap they tried to serve other leaders and churches. They still do. I have not been as involved in recent years as before with WCA but I still applaud the mission and support their core work and convictions. Even the assertion that Marty brought to the table about being 'Pentecostal' is correct. Jack Hayford's investment of mentoring and communicating with Bill about the work of the Holy Spirit about 20 years ago created a HUGE shift in paradigm and worship to WC.

Bill Hybels is NOT lazy. Many mid-size churches who followed the model are led by non-diligent pastors who live for the Sunday show. Hence, the movement behind WC holds to be far less passion-filled and spirit-pursuing than the model. They live for the end and not the means.

Marty, over my almost three decades of personal observation, IS like Hybels in his diligence and focus. He enumerates the steps 'beyond the model' that SC takes to energize and develop people spiritually.

Preacher 777 is much like Marty in my observation - He is for the end but not without the means and the process. His life and ministry have been characterized by passion, prayer and HARD WORK. The man is one of the hardest workers and most succesful salesmen that I have ever known. I was fortunate enough to have him attend my church in Georgia as a guest when he could while he was an attender at one of our leading churches. We had long, deep conversations about discipleship, prayer and developing people according to The Word. In times since, I have opened my pulpit to him, my home and, on many occasions, my ear. We still share these conversations.

It seems to an outsider viewing this that you are on opposite sides of a fence, but I think you are BOTH doing the same thing...caring about people's eternal lives without compromising your convictions.

As for BroJames, while I do not know him, I think his experience gives him a unique and valuable perspective of what it is to encounter a church that lives for the exterior and not the interior. Good that he was sent where he was to bring a voice of courageous leadership and spiritual depth to a church that could have run off the rails.

While we may disagree on some things, we agree that Pentecost was born in SUPERNATURAL evangelism/discipleship and we should never separate the two (as I foolishly did for a season of my life) and those special, amazing churches that can embrace the power of Pentecost with the message of Pentecost are the ones we can look forward to following.
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Brandon Bohannon

Acts-celerater Posts: 571 **2/15/16 2:36 pm**

Great thoughts in this thread. One of the best on here in a long while. Thank you to each one of you who contributed.
_________________
Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8

John Hughes

Willow Creek was:

Hey, DOC Posts: 91 **2/15/16 4:35 pm**

A breath of fresh air after 57 years in the Church of God. During a very dark time I attended WC in South Barrington, IL for two years and for the first time was exposed to a church intent on winning the lost and Intentionally driven toward discipleship. So often damaged people in the COG are ostracized, isolated and forgotten. I needed meaningful restoration and purpose after being treated with total abandonment. I am eternally grateful to Bill Hybels for his consistent ministry, godly leadership and vision to reach lost people. I've enjoyed 3 global Summits which have reached hundreds of thousands of leaders. My admiration for WC extends to their willingness to self-evaluate and fix what isn't working, admit their shortcomings and move forward. So unlike the inflexibility of the COG continuing to do things wrong, assigning pastors to fill slots with really small numbers of churches ever breaking out of the pastor led small church model. Spirit filled with little to no power to impact even their surrounding areas......yet, critical of churches who actually are fulfilling the Biblical mandate to make disciples!
_________________
To Live Without Passion, is unforgivable!!

Brandon Bohannon

Acts-celerater Posts: 571 **2/15/16 6:20 pm**

I cried the first time I attended Willow Creek.

I went to check out their Christmas production. I come from a musical ministry family in the COG. I started performing in plays and musicals at the age of 15. I did leading roles in West Side Story, The Diviners, The Crucible, Man of La Mancha, Once Upon A Mattress, La Cenerentola, The Tender Land, Hello Dolly, Xerxes, The Merry Widow, Bye, Bye Birdie, LA Boheme, Annie Get Your Gun, Iolanthe, Lil Abner, The Threepenny Opera, Kiss Me Kate and The Scarlet Pimpernel. I worked professionally for Gaylord Entertainment when Opryland owned and operated the theme park Fiesta Texas where I held a leading role in America's #1 theme park show, Rockin at Rockville High and landed my first professional union show doing a production of Annie. I was only 22 and had over 30 leading roles under my belt.

My wife was also a professional actor as was my little brother who starred on Broadway in Phantom of the Opera and Sister Act.

Tommy Powell was pastoring in Georgia at the time and he hired my wife and I to be his youth pastors. He also gave us the green light to bring theatre quality production to his church for Christmas each year. Two of the first three productions that we produced were Willow Creek's Word on the Street and A Christmas Tale. Our church and our community fell in love with sharing gospel-centric stories through theatre. We added theatre lights, adjusted our stage and added blackout curtains to help with atmosphere and ambiance. We would also produce The Gospel According to Scrooge (3X; it was Pastor's favorite) and a musical that I wrote in the style of Tyler Perry (we were in the Atlanta area). We installed a snow machine to make it snow in our sanctuary for the last production. We also did a Valentine's variety show. But to my point...

Growing up COG and before the drama category had become what it is today... I felt like there wasn't a place to use my gifts for the Lord. They were ridiculed. They were mocked. They were judged. So much of what I had seen was childish and hokey in quality. Anything that wasn't was deemed as inappropriate for church consumption. I felt really useless. Pastor Powell did his best to encourage our gifts. I will always appreciate that. Then I visited Willow Creek. I wept as I watched the heart, passion for Jesus and excellence of craft. I finally felt that there is room and redemption for the gifts that God has given creative people in the Body of Christ. Things that once seemed impossible now seemed with no doubt possible.

Now that I pastor, we have done two productions with one being a Willow Creek production. I hope to do more. I have witnessed personally the transformation in my own life, in the churches that have done them and in the people who attend. It isn't for everyone. I am older now and understand. It does however impact others. Since those early days I have been to professional Christian theatres at Sight and Sound in Pennsylvania, and at Ragtown Gospel Theatre and at The Promise both in Texas. I have lived the uncomfortable middle between being a multi-generational COG pastor and PK and being an entertainer. It is an uncomfortable and delicate balance finding room for both to coexist. It paid for my Bachelor of Music at Texas Tech University. I graduated debt free. I appreciate the massive strides that Lee University has made in these disciplines. Lee has much to be proud of! Lee Students and COG kids need to know that God has given a multitude of gifts and that operating in those gifts is encouraged, necessary and needed.

Rant over. Just wanted to share another perspective on Willow Creek. Smile

_________________
Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8

brotherjames

one more thought

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **2/16/16 12:02 pm**

Marty Baker said

Brandon Bohannon

Re: one more thought

Acts-celerater Posts: 571 **2/16/16 12:45 pm**

brotherjames

Thanks Brandon

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **2/16/16 1:01 pm**

While I am no longer young, my church is much younger than I am. We are not Bethel Church (I don't want OTCP to go crazy) but we look a lot like it and our worship team looks a lot like Jesus Culture. We are passionate about His Presence esp. in worship. I have always advocated that I would gladly sacrifice excellence on the altar of anointing if I had to. However, if you can have both, you will have awesome worship and we do.

As to the Spirit being the weird 3rd cousin, that is EXACTLY the problem. To far too many of our churches, the Spirit's manifestations are scary because of the weird people he uses sometimes. Teach your people what Tongues & the interpretation looks like, teach them what prophecy is and that it is NOT testimony but the Lord speaking words to encourage, build up and comfort His church (1 COr. 14:3). Teach them to do things decently and in order.

Being Pentecostal does not mean buns, long skirts, no makeup or jewelry. It does not mean barking like dogs or other weirdness. It does mean expecting the SPirit of God to manifest with His love and grace and power to heal, save and deliver. Do not be afraid of pregnant pauses in your worship, in fact you should facillitate that. Teach your people and them trust them to be used properly. People will mess up. Gently correct them when you have to (privately is best unless it is really egregious). If you do those things and make room for Holy Spirit, He will come in power in your midst.

We do more evangelism in our city than any other church. we have done radical things like a Trip to Hell and we do egg hunts and a Pumpkin Patch Outreach with bounce houses, games, super heroes and princesses who tell stories about the real super hero Jesus. We give away free pumpkins and do face painting and free food. BUT, we tell the kids and parents about Jesus and we have a prayer tent where we pray for the sick, the hurting and general needs, and the people come because we love them. But we are not ashamed of the Spirit of God.

Keep it up. I am going to Ecuador this Sunday to take our Master's Commission students to do evangelism and crusades in Guayaquil. We will love on people, do dramas and worship. Do workshops in churches, school assemblies and each evening do a Crusade to hundreds and probably thousands. I will preach the Good News and the Spirit of God will show up to heal and powerfully manifest his Presence. Why? Because that is His nature and that's why I am an unashamed PENTECOSTAL!

bonnie knox

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **2/16/16 3:57 pm**

brotherjames

sorry

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **2/16/16 4:18 pm**

I hit submit and didn't mean to. Embarassed

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **2/16/16 9:41 pm**

Brandon,

In my experience, most CoGs simply do not have the acting or directorial talent to do much more than they presently do. I can't imagine a CoG that had the means to produce a top-notch drama not doing so. I always enjoy even just the kids in their bath robes reciting a few lines from the Nativity story. If that is the best a local church can do, I see no reason to despise their offering, be it ever so humble.