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The Roots of OTCP's Interest in Questionable Credentials and Legitimate Degrees (L)

 
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Post The Roots of OTCP's Interest in Questionable Credentials and Legitimate Degrees (L) Old Time Country Preacher
Some a yall fellers might wonder what the roots a this issue is with the old timer. In no way is the ole timer tryin to out folk or shame em publically, but to inform em.

Hey, growin up, I didn't even know what accreditation was, much less that they was legitimate accreditation an accreditation mills. I thought ifn somebody used a degree or title, it was real, an I never gave it a second thought.

In 1993, while readin a copy of the publication "Pulpit Helps," I seen a book advertised titled "Name it & frame it?: New opportunities in adult education and how to avoid being ripped off by "Christian" degree mills." The book is out of print, but still listed on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Name-frame-opportunities-education-Christian/dp/B0006F1PCQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1445443362&sr=1-1&keywords=Name+it+%26+frame+it%3F%3A+New+opportunities+in+adult+education+and+how+to+avoid+being+ripped+off+by+%22Christian%22+degree+mills The book was only advertised in Pulpit Helps a few months, cause most a the schools what advertised in Pulpit Helps was degree mills, an the book called em out by name. So, Pulpit Helps stopped advertising the book. But not before the ole timer got his copy.

This book listed scores a red flags about "Christian" schools offerin degrees from Assoc-PhD, some with only 1 or 2 faculty, an offerin a PhD in as many as 20 different disciplines. It explained the intricacies of accreditation, named accreditation mills like ACI, TACI, etc. and how they are nothin more than a money makin machine what gives little "Christian" schools the legal right to say "We're Fully Accredited," but they don't tell ya the accreditation is not recognized an is meaningless. It talked about "life experience" degrees where some places was awardin docterates if a feller had a certain number a years in the ministry...well, plus the tuition check.

Then, I got to lookin around at ma very own COG, an I seen fellers who was obtaining, encouraging others to obtain, and use, "degrees" from such places. But not only COG boys, Indy Baptists, Indy's, an others.

Then I come across another book titled "Diploma Mills: Degrees of Fraud." Here it is: http://www.amazon.com/Diploma-Mills-American-Education-MacMillan/dp/0029304105/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1445443852&sr=1-3&keywords=degree+mills

Then, another more recent book titled "Degree Mills: The Billion-Dollar Industry That Has Sold Over a Million Fake Diplomas." Here it is, wrote by a FBI agent whose job was to search these things out an shut em down. http://www.amazon.com/Degree-Mills-Billion-Dollar-Industry-Diplomas-ebook/dp/B00C4B2U2O/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1445443852&sr=1-1&keywords=degree+mills

Hey, I know this post is a bit long, but I wanted you boys to know the source a ma concern. Degree mills and accreditation mills are real. Preachers is gittin em an usin em. This is especially so at the docteral level cause folk seem to covet the title "Dr."

An here is the deal:

1. Nobody MUST have a academic degree to be used of God.

2. Academic degrees are most beneficial if used correctly.

3. If a preacher's heart leads him to git academic training an degrees, they aint a thing wrong with it.

4. BUT, if ya gonna git academic degrees, git em right. Please, for the sake of integrity, don't go the degree mill route.
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10/21/15 11:25 am


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Post (link) Da Sheik
I think it is much akin to how an officer of the law feels when someone impersonates an officer. The true police officer has gone through the intense training and discipline. To have someone put on the badge and act incongruent with those values and impersonate them would be very offensive.

Reminds me of Gomer issuing a "Citizen's arrest" to Barney on Andy Griffith Laughing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwEvysDpNm0
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10/21/15 11:49 am


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Post Re: (link) Cojak
Da Sheik wrote:
I think it is much akin to how an officer of the law feels when someone impersonates an officer. The true police officer has gone through the intense training and discipline. To have someone put on the badge and act incongruent with those values and impersonate them would be very offensive.

Reminds me of Gomer issuing a "Citizen's arrest" to Barney on Andy Griffith Laughing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwEvysDpNm0
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10/21/15 11:52 am


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Post OTCP brotherjames
I agree with you on this one but I will say that in recent years advanced degrees have become more necessary in order to obtain positions in some churches. In the AG especially (can't speak for COG) it has become de rigueur to have an advanced degree in order to be considered for a church of a certain size or larger. The emphasis from Headquarters, while subtle, is nonetheless there. At a conference I went to where all the speakers were AG pastors, every one of them but one had a Dr of divinity degree and the other one had a MDiv. The inference was only these people were worthy. When I recently was approached by a church to consider becoming their pastor, they were shocked to discover that I did not possess a Doctorate but they would still consider me as I had 30+ years in reasonably successful ministry (I turned them down). So you can see why some people might feel the need to have an advanced degree and try to shortcut the process. Then there is that ego thing too which might be the problem with some. THe advanced degrees that the AG ministers had were all earned and we have a policy against degrees from mills etc within the AG as you know. We have lost touch with reality. Calling, anointing, ability, excellence, integrity should count for more than they seem to these days. Just because you have a Dr. in front of your name, even an earned one, doesn't mean you can minister. Acts-celerater
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10/21/15 1:24 pm


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Post Re: OTCP Old Time Country Preacher
brotherjames wrote:
I agree with you on this one but I will say that in recent years advanced degrees have become more necessary in order to obtain positions in some churches. In the AG especially (can't speak for COG) it has become de rigueur to have an advanced degree in order to be considered for a church of a certain size or larger. The emphasis from Headquarters, while subtle, is nonetheless there. At a conference I went to where all the speakers were AG pastors, every one of them but one had a Dr of divinity degree and the other one had a MDiv. The inference was only these people were worthy. When I recently was approached by a church to consider becoming their pastor, they were shocked to discover that I did not possess a Doctorate but they would still consider me as I had 30+ years in reasonably successful ministry (I turned them down). So you can see why some people might feel the need to have an advanced degree and try to shortcut the process. Then there is that ego thing too which might be the problem with some. THe advanced degrees that the AG ministers had were all earned and we have a policy against degrees from mills etc within the AG as you know. We have lost touch with reality. Calling, anointing, ability, excellence, integrity should count for more than they seem to these days. Just because you have a Dr. in front of your name, even an earned one, doesn't mean you can minister.


BJ, I fully agree with ya that just cause a feller has Dr. in front a his name, even a earned one, this alone don't mean he can minister. An I also agree that the trend, specially among larger churches, is for fellers to have advanced degrees.

An I do recognize the temptation to, in your words, shortcut the process, an get a milled credential. But this is where integrity comes into the ballgame. Hey, we all tempted to do all kinds a stuff, but we (men of God, ministers of the Gospel) make the choice to either do or refrain from doin whatever the temptation might be. Fellers who circumvent the given norms of the academic process have placed a question mark beside their integrity. If a feller aint faithful in little things, how can he be faithful in bigger things. If a preacher obtains a milled docterate, uses the title professionally, he is telling/saying to every single person who reads his bio, website, business card, etc., that he has an earned docterate. Then, when its revealed that he went to ABC Seminary, paid $1200, wrote a ten page paper, an walks off with a PhD, what does this say about his integrity?
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10/21/15 2:04 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
And guys that have demonstrated a keen ability to advance the kingdom are awarded an honorary doctorate from an accredited institution.

These are much more that certificates of achievement. They are a recognition that the recipient has demonstrated ability above and beyond what most that actually got the degree have achieved.

They are more valuable in my opinion - again, as long as they are from an accredited institution.
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10/21/15 3:41 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
And guys that have demonstrated a keen ability to advance the kingdom are awarded an honorary doctorate from an accredited institution.

These are much more that certificates of achievement. They are a recognition that the recipient has demonstrated ability above and beyond what most that actually got the degree have achieved.

They are more valuable in my opinion - again, as long as they are from an accredited institution.


This thread has no reference to honery docterates an all. But your statement above gave me a good laugh, NBF.

Demonstrated ability above and beyond what most that actually got the degree achieved? Look at the number of fellers who've been given a honery doctorate the last 20 years. Most of em got it cause they was "elected" to a certain position. If that constitutes "ability above an beyond" them what actually earned one, I live in a different world than some a you boys. Getting elected to a position IN NO WAY means a feller has ability above an beyond someone who has earned a docterate.
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10/21/15 4:53 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
I am sure some mistakes have been made...
But if Bill Gates was given an honorary doctorate in Business,
Paul Conn was given an honorary doctorate in Education,
Elvis Presley given an honorary doctorate in Music -
those doctorates are in recognition of skills that education alone can't teach - and educational institutions that recognize those should be commended - not denigrated.

Those Drs. would be very valid in my opinion.
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10/21/15 5:07 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
I am sure some mistakes have been made...
But if Bill Gates was given an honorary doctorate in Business,
Paul Conn was given an honorary doctorate in Education,
Elvis Presley given an honorary doctorate in Music -
those doctorates are in recognition of skills that education alone can't teach - and educational institutions that recognize those should be commended - not denigrated.

Those Drs. would be very valid in my opinion.


These were not mistakes, NBF. PTS, Lee, ECBC, WCCC & NWBC were very much aware of the practice. Oddly enough, none a these schools--Lee included--even offered a doctoral program a any kind. Only recently has PTS begun the DMin program. Course ECBC, WCCC & NWBC no longer exist. But the trend over the past 20+ years has been if a feller is elected to the EC, or one a the department heads, not ever single time, but quite often, they are awarded a honery doctorate, then the title Dr. is used from that point forward. One recipient in particular, had demeaned an lambasted academics/education in many a his sermons. Once elected to the EC, he was awarded a honery docterate, an immediately began usin Dr.
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10/21/15 8:57 pm


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Post c6thplayer1
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
I am sure some mistakes have been made...
But if Bill Gates was given an honorary doctorate in Business,
Paul Conn was given an honorary doctorate in Education,
Elvis Presley given an honorary doctorate in Music -
those doctorates are in recognition of skills that education alone can't teach - and educational institutions that recognize those should be commended - not denigrated.

Those Drs. would be very valid in my opinion.



I wonder if these colleges that offer honorary Doctorates are targeting individual like this so that the college officials can bask in their recipients’ star power? The doctorate is totally useless and in many cases illegal to use for profit.

Why do i feel this way ......

Kanye West beamed on Monday as he was awarded an honorary doctorate from the School of the Art Institute in Chicago, one of the top art schools in America.

Kanye west is know for his profanity and violence in his music and this guy gets an honorary doctorate from a top accredited art school?

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/may/11/kanye-west-receives-honorary-doctorate-chicago

Kermit the Frog - Surprising honorary degree recipients
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8855284/Surprising-honorary-degree-recipients.html?image=3

Honorary Doctorates are nothing more than a superficial credential? And many times given to undeserving individuals by schools that probably have an underlying agenda.
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10/21/15 9:33 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
c6thplayer1 wrote:
Honorary Doctorates are nothing more than a superficial credential? And many times given to undeserving individuals by schools that probably have an underlying agenda.


Even though this has semi-hijakked ma thread, C6 is dead on in his assessment here.

Them honery docterates is:

1. Superficial certificate of appreciation

2. Awarded by schools that hope to gain recognition from the relationship with the star status of certain recipients.
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10/22/15 12:25 am


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Post Nick Park
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
c6thplayer1 wrote:
Honorary Doctorates are nothing more than a superficial credential? And many times given to undeserving individuals by schools that probably have an underlying agenda.


Even though this has semi-hijakked ma thread, C6 is dead on in his assessment here.

Them honery docterates is:

1. Superficial certificate of appreciation

2. Awarded by schools that hope to gain recognition from the relationship with the star status of certain recipients.


You forgot one.

3. Awarded to extremely wealthy individuals. Such honorary degrees are often, quite coincidentally, made at a time when the academic institution in question is embarking on a new building project.
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10/22/15 3:17 am


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Nick Park wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
c6thplayer1 wrote:
Honorary Doctorates are nothing more than a superficial credential? And many times given to undeserving individuals by schools that probably have an underlying agenda.


Even though this has semi-hijakked ma thread, C6 is dead on in his assessment here.

Them honery docterates is:

1. Superficial certificate of appreciation

2. Awarded by schools that hope to gain recognition from the relationship with the star status of certain recipients.


You forgot one.

3. Awarded to extremely wealthy individuals. Such honorary degrees are often, quite coincidentally, made at a time when the academic institution in question is embarking on a new building project.


True dat an all, Nick. You absolutely right.
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10/22/15 10:54 am


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Post Link
I'm trying to get a dissertation done. I hope there is still time to present this semester. I've got the discussion and table of contents to write, and the thing needs a really good revision. So please pray for me.

But I don't get fired up about diploma mills on an emotional level. Maybe that's because decent schools that aren't diploma mills don't hire people for having PhD's from diploma mills. But a preacher might be able to get some mileage out of a degree in diploma mills.

It's funny that I have a number of old friends I checked back with that ended up getting doctorates. I can think of four or five. I don't know if there are just a lot of doctorates or if folks who get doctorates later in life tend to hang out together.

One friend of mine I worked with as an English teacher in South Korea had gotten a PhD from a state university in education. He worked as a school teacher when I talked to him about a year ago, and he was a bit upset that people who'd put in only 2 years for online degrees got the same bump in pay that he did.

But he has the option of actually working at a university. I don't think someone with a 2-year online degree has much career opportunity in the field beyond a bump in pay from the school system. One of my daughter's teachers had one of those degrees and was disappointed that he could not find a college teaching job with his degree.

I don't know that a school system would acknowledge an unaccredited degree at all.

But the preacher with the diploma mill degree may enjoy the honorific title, the greetings in the marketplace of 'Dr.', just as many pastors enjoy being greeted with the honorific title 'pastor', just as the scribes enjoyed being called 'rabbi' or 'father.'
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10/22/15 3:20 pm


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My sister graduated from Piedmont College, a congregational school. They had added a new masters program, possibly their first one. And they gave an honorary doctorate to a certain preacher. Maybe he was rich, but I doubt it. He'd been on TV, but I'd never heard of him. They gave him an honorary degree. Is there a tradition of giving out an honorary doctorate when a school first starts a new grad program?
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10/22/15 3:23 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Link wrote:
My sister graduated from Piedmont College, a congregational school. They had added a new masters program, possibly their first one. And they gave an honorary doctorate to a certain preacher. Maybe he was rich, but I doubt it. He'd been on TV, but I'd never heard of him. They gave him an honorary degree. Is there a tradition of giving out an honorary doctorate when a school first starts a new grad program?



Link, even some two-year Bible colleges award honery docterates. Its a shame, but they do. Back in the late 90's when Paula/Randy White was at the height a their ministry they operated a two year Bible college/institute that awarded a honery doctorate to a COG preacher I know. He immediately began to use the "Dr. Jimmy John Jones," an had never even earned a undergrad degree.
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10/22/15 4:50 pm


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Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Link wrote:
My sister graduated from Piedmont College, a congregational school. They had added a new masters program, possibly their first one. And they gave an honorary doctorate to a certain preacher. Maybe he was rich, but I doubt it. He'd been on TV, but I'd never heard of him. They gave him an honorary degree. Is there a tradition of giving out an honorary doctorate when a school first starts a new grad program?



Link, even some two-year Bible colleges award honery docterates. Its a shame, but they do. Back in the late 90's when Paula/Randy White was at the height a their ministry they operated a two year Bible college/institute that awarded a honery doctorate to a COG preacher I know. He immediately began to use the "Dr. Jimmy John Jones," an had never even earned a undergrad degree.


If a two-year institute is giving out honorary degrees, it should give out honorary two-year diplomas. Why are they giving out honorary degrees higher than their real degrees?

That doesn't make much sense. Of course, it doesn't have to.
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10/22/15 9:37 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Link wrote:
If a two-year institute is giving out honorary degrees, it should give out honorary two-year diplomas. Why are they giving out honorary degrees higher than their real degrees?


Ahhhh, a excellent question, Link.

Lee has been doin it fer years.

ECBC, a 4-year undergrad school, while it was still operatin, awarded honery docterates. Not shore if WCCC or NWBC gave honery docterates while they were still operatin or not.
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10/22/15 10:14 pm


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