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Loran Livingston: I believe in Eternal Security
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Post Ventureforth
Peter gives a long list of sins in 1 Peter 2.
In your opinion, what goes on in the heart and mind of a person at the point he becomes apostate as these false teachers did in 1 Peter 2?
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7/10/15 11:58 pm


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Post Do you mean "2 Peter"? spartanfan
Ventureforth wrote:
Peter gives a long list of sins in 1 Peter 2.
In your opinion, what goes on in the heart and mind of a person at the point he becomes apostate as these false teachers did in 1 Peter 2?


I'm not the expert but there are some indicators in the Scripture as to what can happen... for instance Mark 4 Verses 16:-17: “And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.”

These are the people who enthusiastically embrace their newfound faith, but never do anything to solidify it or to make sure they are growing into mature discipleship. Perhaps they have been taught OSAS and they consider the one-time act of praying a prayer to be all that is necessary for living the Christ-like life. Soon, the newness wears off, they have no true foundation of sound doctrine, and, before they realize it, they gradually have returned to their old way of life.

Then there are those seen in Verses 18-19: “And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.”

These are like those in 2 Peter who take their eyes off of Jesus and because of a lack of trust in Jesus turn back into trusting self or even the money that they can accumulate for their self. They fail to trust in God to see them through the hard times. They allow their selfish desires to overrule their allegiance to God. It might be that the love of money (I Timothy 6:10) outweighs their love of God. It might be that they simply do not trust that God will provide as He promises. These believers allow the things of the world (James 4:4) to turn them away from God.

There is no "cookie cutter" description of the "why" behind backsliding. There is just a lot of proof that it happens. (I should credit "what christians want to know" about backsliding for this since I cut and pasted the most of this response).
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7/11/15 12:23 am


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Post Re: Do you mean "2 Peter"? bradfreeman
spartanfan wrote:
Ventureforth wrote:
Peter gives a long list of sins in 1 Peter 2.
In your opinion, what goes on in the heart and mind of a person at the point he becomes apostate as these false teachers did in 1 Peter 2?


I'm not the expert but there are some indicators in the Scripture as to what can happen... for instance Mark 4 Verses 16:-17: “And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.”

These are the people who enthusiastically embrace their newfound faith, but never do anything to solidify it or to make sure they are growing into mature discipleship. Perhaps they have been taught OSAS and they consider the one-time act of praying a prayer to be all that is necessary for living the Christ-like life. Soon, the newness wears off, they have no true foundation of sound doctrine, and, before they realize it, they gradually have returned to their old way of life.


If you take the passage at face value, these experience a targeted attack from people (tribulation or persecution) "on account of the word". Their's isn't a gradual departure, they immediately "fall away" - the same group that "immediately receive it with joy". The scripture consistently uses the term fall away to describe a departure from faith. So I don't think it's fair to ascribe a certain theological view to this crowd. This is exactly what Paul was contending with when the Judaizers were pressuring his converts and persecuting him because of the word. Jesus specifically warns us that persecution would arise for righteousness sake. For the Judaizers, righteousness apart from the law was unacceptable. They opposed Paul's message of righteousmes by faith and sent messengers to buffet him with trouble and persecution everywhere he went.

Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong. (‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭12‬:‭10‬ NASB)

Quote:
Then there are those seen in Verses 18-19: “And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.”

These are like those in 2 Peter who take their eyes off of Jesus and because of a lack of trust in Jesus turn back into trusting self or even the money that they can accumulate for their self. They fail to trust in God to see them through the hard times. They allow their selfish desires to overrule their allegiance to God. It might be that the love of money (I Timothy 6:10) outweighs their love of God. It might be that they simply do not trust that God will provide as He promises. These believers allow the things of the world (James 4:4) to turn them away from God.


It's not really clear that this group ever received the word or believe the word. Fruitfulness flows from union with Christ and these never bore fruit.

Quote:
There is no "cookie cutter" description of the "why" behind backsliding. There is just a lot of proof that it happens. (I should credit "what christians want to know" about backsliding for this since I cut and pasted the most of this response).


There is no reference to "backsliding" in the New Testament. But I think a strong case can be made that "falling away" is a departure from faith - meaning a rejection of faith in the sacrifice of Jesus as insufficient to cleanse from sin and make righteous.

How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? (‭Hebrews‬ ‭10‬:‭29‬ NASB)
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7/11/15 7:03 am


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Post Yep, those who fall away...... spartanfan
They do things like forbid folks to marry and command them to be vegetarians while they give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils....

1 Timothy 4 King James Version (KJV):1-6

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
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7/11/15 11:20 am


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Post bonnie knox
Just a side note, spartanfan, I think "meats" in verse 3 is "meat" as in "food" and not just specifically animal flesh. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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7/11/15 11:48 am


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
bonnie knox wrote:
Just a side note, spartanfan, I think "meats" in verse 3 is "meat" as in "food" and not just specifically animal flesh.



Verse 3 in the NIV reads, "They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."


Im a tellin yall, Miss Bonnie is becomin real sharp at exegetin em passages. Cool
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7/11/15 1:42 pm


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Post Agreed.... spartanfan
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
Just a side note, spartanfan, I think "meats" in verse 3 is "meat" as in "food" and not just specifically animal flesh.



Verse 3 in the NIV reads, "They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."


Im a tellin yall, Miss Bonnie is becomin real sharp at exegetin em passages. Cool


I agree - but most all the forbidden were meat, fish, poultry (not taters)! And I was just being comical even mentioning it. I know nobody says you need to be a vegetarian. Smile
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7/11/15 2:33 pm


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Post Da Sheik
Here's a question I have for those who do not believe in Eternal Security. Is a "backslidden" person still a Christian? Or are they some kind of hybrid of saved/unsaved living in a state of temporal purgatory? Acts Enthusiast
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7/13/15 10:53 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
In my understanding, a backslidden Christian is one who has left the first love he once had for Christ, and is lukewarm at best, in peril of being vomited out of Christ's mouth unless he repents and returns to the love he had at first.

An apostate Christian is one who has completely forsaken following the Lord Jesus at all, who has forsaken the way of righteousness for the way of wickedness.

With the doctrine of eternal security, the former category is still saved no matter what, and the warning doesn't reflect a real possibility of being vomited out of His mouth, while the latter category were never saved at all. For the backslidden/lukewarm to ask the question, "But am I still a Christian, saved and going to Heaven if I die?" is quite obviously not the proper response to this clear warning of Christ to repent.
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7/13/15 11:51 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
And then on the other side of the road are those who have become legalistic in their approach, holding to a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. These also have fallen from grace according to Paul. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Him. Acts-perienced Poster
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7/13/15 11:59 am


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Post Ventureforth
Some observations and additional thoughts on 2 Peter 2:

Quote:
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.


The first verse tells us these false teachers have even denied the Master. "Master" reminds us of the Lord Christ and His Lordship , which they refused. There were probably also heresies about Christ's diety.

"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord..." Romans 10:9

These teachers are in contrast to "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Romans 8"14


These false teachers don't seem to care about their sins and they even take pleasure in them.(v. 13)
This is in contrast to Lot who was tormented with sins of others around him. (v. 7)

They have become ruled by the sin nature(v. 19) and there probably is even some demonic influence. They are entangled and enslaved(v. 19-20). I presume this is because they allow themselves to be.


My point here is that there appears to me to be a conscious decision to reject Christ's lordship (and probably their faith in Him) at some time after knowing Christ and the way of righteousness. After which, they used their position as teacher as a tool to feed their sinful nature.

Side note: These are teachers who James says will be "judged with greater strictness." However, this is not to say the only reason they are apostate is that they are teachers and committed these sins.
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7/13/15 9:08 pm


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