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You can change 1 thing in the Church of God…what?
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Post JLarry
For the last few days I have followed this thread wondering how I could participate.

The one change I would love to see is simple to me. I would love to see more CoG ministers love whole the Body of Christ.

There is far to much criticism of other ministries. It seems if they are not like us they are NOT.

Also when a ministry becomes, BIG they become the target of fellow ministers.
There are several TV ministers who I do not care to listen to but that does not mean they are not my brothers. They do not take on horns when they become BIG. Nor do they take on horns when they do not preach/teach like I do.

For the record, I do draw some lines. If you preach/teach salvation comes from any source other than Jesus, IMO you may have horns. If you are a preacher who has come out of the closet, and continue to preach, IMO you have grown horns. If you teach that sex with anyone other than your spouse (male and female) is ok, you are to horny. I hope you get the picture.

But if you preach Jesus and you are not to weird with your doctrine I accept you as a Brother or Sister.

It concerns me that we have demonized fellow ministers.
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2/18/14 10:23 am


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Post Great Post, JLarry! OHIOBISHOPBILL
JLarry wrote:
For the last few days I have followed this thread wondering how I could participate.

The one change I would love to see is simple to me. I would love to see more CoG ministers love whole the Body of Christ.

There is far to much criticism of other ministries. It seems if they are not like us they are NOT.


When I was living in ATL (1998-2002), Youth Specialities held their annual workers meeting in the city and I rode the Marta each day from the state parsonage to downtown and walked to the sessions. In the opening general session, we were invited to introduce ourselves to those around us and i found myself seated by a Methodist youth leader and a man from the Presbyterian church. When the band started playing, the songs were familiar to me and the 5,000 or so in attendance with one voice began to sing. From the corner of my eye, I noticed my Methodist sister with hands in the air, singing with as much gusto to our Heavenly Father as I was! I sneaked a glance to my Presbyterian new friend and his eyes were closed and his cheeks had tears from the emotion of his soul.

And I felt God speak to my heart "I have disciples in places and walks of life that you would not believe or even consider!" I never forgot that moment. The kingdom of God is bigger than me. I'm only one voice but I'm a part of an enormous growing congregation of those who call Jesus, Lord and love him as much as I do! I hope I never forget that.

As for our criticism of other ministers, Jesus dealt with his disciples on this matter when they reported that they had stopped someone who was speaking in the Lord's name. We would do well to remember his advice. There is only one way to heaven--by Jesus Christ but there are plenty of people coming from all walks, cultures and persuasions.

Great post, JLarry!
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2/18/14 12:20 pm


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Post Bishop JLarry
I missed you. After 20 years I left N. Ga in Feb of 98 to come back home to S. Ga.

Didn't you serve in S. Ga. before that?
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Last edited by JLarry on 2/19/14 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post Nick Park
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Nick,

I would certainly agree that we should not try to enforce "our" religious beliefs on others like the Taliban does or like the Roman Catholic Inquisition did during the Middle Ages or like John Calvin did in the city Geneva in his day.

Even still the fact remains that no society anywhere has a right to enact laws that contradict the eternal moral law of God. They may have the ability to do so, but they certainly have no right to do so.

For instance, if a government decided to make murder legal, it could never be truly justified in doing so, and good citizens would be duty bound to stand against such unrighteousness in government. Alas, they already have done this.

So to say we shouldn't try to 'enforce' our religious beliefs on others is to basically allow the secularists (who have no really objective moral standard at all) to dictate to us what is right and what is wrong, and is tantamount to endorsing immorality/sin altogether.


So, are you saying that a modern democracy has not got the right to legally permit any behaviour that contravenes God's moral law? Adultery and fornication prohibited? Catholics and Hindus banned from praying to idolatrous statues?

I don't see any support for such a stance in the New Testament. Scripture encourages believers to live as children of light in a dark world. We should certainly be at the forefront in combatting social injustice - which includes murder and slavery. But that is a very different issue from forcing others to follow our rules in regard to personal morality.
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2/18/14 5:37 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
To my understanding, it comes down to the question of God's authority as King over all mankind. No society anywhere has a right, under God, to enact a law that is contrary to God's law. This is ultimately why, for instance, abortion or slavery can never be justified, no matter what man's law may say.

Why would you say abortion should be outlawed, if not because of the moral law of God forbidding murder?

Laws don't force anyone to obey them, ultimately, of course, but the moral law which is written on the hearts of all mankind (Rom. 1 and 2) holds up a standard which tells all what is right or wrong in any society, in any time or place.
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2/18/14 6:50 pm


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Post Nick Park
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
To my understanding, it comes down to the question of God's authority as King over all mankind. No society anywhere has a right, under God, to enact a law that is contrary to God's law. This is ultimately why, for instance, abortion or slavery can never be justified, no matter what man's law may say.

Why would you say abortion should be outlawed, if not because of the moral law of God forbidding murder?

Laws don't force anyone to obey them, ultimately, of course, but the moral law which is written on the hearts of all mankind (Rom. 1 and 2) holds up a standard which tells all what is right or wrong in any society, in any time or place.


Abortion should be outlawed because it is an act of cruelty towards the weakest and most vulnerable members of society. Therefore, like slavery and murder, it is a matter of social justice.

I think most Christians, upon reflection, would agree that such things should have no place in a civilized society. However, most of us would also want to live in a democracy where people have the freedom to worship according to their consciences - even when some people's worship includes idolatry which is a violation of God's moral law.

Putting it quite simply, if the only reason we oppose murder is 'because the Bible tells me so' then we really have very little to contribute to public debate on ethics or morality. People like William Wilberforce battled to abolish slavery. Yes, their consciences were certainly informed by Scripture and their Christian experience - but they saw that opposition to slavery was based on something more than religious belief alone.
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2/18/14 7:23 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
I don't mean to say this should be so "because the Bible tells me so." Paul's argument in Romans 1, 2, and 3 concerning the moral law, the guilt of sin (breaking the moral law) and the wrath of God consequent upon all sin, is not, "All mankind is guilty before God because they don't accept the Bible." It is instead that the law of God has been written on every man's conscience, and all are responsible to obey it. Instead of "the Bible tells me so," it is instead, "The law of God written on your conscience by the Spirit of God testifies to all men of moral obligation (right and wrong)."

If any government legislates in such a way as to legalize murder, idolatry, theft, lying, adultery, slavery, etc. (all social justice issues) then that government is manifestly unrighteous and ultimately illegitimate. They may have the ability to pass such unrighteous laws, but such laws and such governments can never be justified in the sight of the King of all the universe. Both the unjust governmental authorities who enact such laws and the society which tries to justify ungodly behavior under the cloak of man-made legislation will give a most severe account thereof in the Day of Judgement.

The moral law of God is the very basis for any real and enduring form of social justice.
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2/18/14 9:35 pm


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Post if I may ... Poimen
Nick Park wrote:

So, are you saying that a modern democracy has not got the right to legally permit any behaviour that contravenes God's moral law? Adultery and fornication prohibited? Catholics and Hindus banned from praying to idolatrous statues?


This may be splitting frog hairs, but ... No! No government, modern or otherwise, has the "right" to legally permit any behavior that contravenes God's moral law. They may have the power or the ability to do so, and it may expedient (form their perspective) to do so, but they do not have the right to do so.

I am sure that was not your implication anyhow. Nevertheless, fwiw ...
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Post bradfreeman
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Post Re: if I may ... Nick Park
Poimen wrote:
Nick Park wrote:

So, are you saying that a modern democracy has not got the right to legally permit any behaviour that contravenes God's moral law? Adultery and fornication prohibited? Catholics and Hindus banned from praying to idolatrous statues?


This may be splitting frog hairs, but ... No! No government, modern or otherwise, has the "right" to legally permit any behavior that contravenes God's moral law. They may have the power or the ability to do so, and it may expedient (form their perspective) to do so, but they do not have the right to do so.

I am sure that was not your implication anyhow. Nevertheless, fwiw ...


So, Poimen, I would like to ask both you and Quiet Wyatt a simple question. If it were possible to persuade the government and the courts to do so - would you support the passing and enforcement of a law in the United States that forbade Hindus to worship according to their beliefs and conscience (bearing in mind that idolatry is contrary to God's moral law and is condemned much more strongly than slavery or homosexuality)?
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Post Quiet Wyatt
Not sure why idolatry should be considered permissible (much less, righteous), and it is truly inconsequential what my personal opinion is, but in any case...since God's will is paramount in all things, and all sin (transgression of His moral law) is contrary to His will, it then follows that all who honor Him as LORD of all would always be in favor of righteous civil laws that conform to the moral law of God and would always be opposed to ANY unrighteous laws which do not conform to His standard of righteousness. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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Post Most change is a mindset…from my experience OHIOBISHOPBILL
I went to a state many years ago as YD and met with the youth board members and their wives and heard the horror of how youth camp was no longer run by the adults but by the campers. They lamented that significant change was needed or we might lose our camp program. It was a sobering discussion to say the least.

What I determined was the mindset of the leadership had to change and that mindset change altered the environments for both the campers and the staff. First day of camp, I and my executive leadership set a tone that campers mattered but order would be maintained. We had to send one camper home who tested our resolve and the remaining four years we were there, camps grew, pastors and local youth leaders believed. The mindset of leadership who caught a higher vision changed everything.

I went to Louisiana in 2002 and found frustration and cynicism. They saw themselves as a small state without the resources to change the environments. Some pastors had quit participating and even said "the church of god only exists between the city limit signs in my town." It took some time but we started engaging, talking, pointing toward our future and people began to buy into their own future. Unity and brotherhood began to take hold and we actually started caring about one another. Of course, God knew Katrina was coming and we would need a strong bond to withstand the loss of 30 churches in one weekend. We did and looking back, I see the mindset that changed Louisiana was a leadership posture that did not look back but looked ahead and imagined a preferred future. The buy in was slow and took at least those first two years and for some did not occur until I came back after four years and they realized this was for real.

What I am humbly trying to convey is that we must be lead strongly and with compassion, we must get behind our leadership and believe in the vision and future that is being offered and we must change our mindset to embrace things that only come in unity, brotherhood and vision.

I believe we have the leadership both in International and states and regions that will cast a large and empowering vision. Just yesterday we saw the shift in approach that is coming in upcoming General Assembly…and there is a growing community of pastors and leaders hungry to go where God is calling and believe in the future and we must cast aside the distractions of flesh and personal agendas so that we can come together as we once did to bring the message of Jesus Christ to the lost of the world.

I'm just back from Brazil and I'm so inspired by what is happening in South America. Churches are being planted, pastors are being trained, widows and orphans are getting greater and more compassionate care. In part because leadership in these countries are casting a vision the people now believe in. Its happening in other countries and it is happening the USA as well. I'm excited...

May God grant that throughout the world there will be a coming together of our church as never before. We have the talent, we have the resources and we have a message.
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2/20/14 10:35 am


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Post JLarry
I posted:
Quote:
For the last few days I have followed this thread wondering how I could participate.

The one change I would love to see is simple to me. I would love to see more CoG ministers love whole the Body of Christ.

There is far to much criticism of other ministries. It seems if they are not like us they are NOT.

Also when a ministry becomes, BIG they become the target of fellow ministers.
There are several TV ministers who I do not care to listen to but that does not mean they are not my brothers. They do not take on horns when they become BIG. Nor do they take on horns when they do not preach/teach like I do.

For the record, I do draw some lines. If you preach/teach salvation comes from any source other than Jesus, IMO you may have horns. If you are a preacher who has come out of the closet, and continue to preach, IMO you have grown horns. If you teach that sex with anyone other than your spouse (male and female) is ok, you are to horny. I hope you get the picture.

But if you preach Jesus and you are not to weird with your doctrine I accept you as a Brother or Sister.

It concerns me that we have demonized fellow ministers.


Case in point, see the thread "would you volunteer at a Joyce Myer crusade"
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2/21/14 10:06 am


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Post One thing I would change (long reply) Dentanner
Forgive me for making this so long but I have studied and prayed about this for quite awhile and finally feel comfortable enough to post it.

If I could change one thing in the Church of God. I would reaffirm and clearly define the word and work of “Missionary”. It would also be well to develop a clear “Theology of Missions” that would be taught and promoted from Executive leaders and the local pastors. I think the Missional Movement has high jacked the word ‘missionary’ and uses it much like the word ‘mission’ to describe everything the believer does.

Even though I have said it myself, I think by referring or calling every Christian a missionary we are confusing and compromising the term. Every person has a message but not every person is called to share that message as a pastor, evangelist, teacher, administrator, prophet, apostle or missionary.

I will have to differ (although I understand what he is wanting to say) a bit with Bill’s statement that “we are missionaries in a culture that does not know God, does not know what God has done and are conditioned to be fearful, resisting to any inclusion of God in their thoughts or actions.”

I think it is confusing to compare or name as a missionary, the person who is or has the responsibility of communicating the Gospel in Non Christian USA culture to a person who is communicating the Gospel in the Non Christian Culture of Central Africa, or Eastern Europe, India or Post-Christian Western Europe and UK.

Stephen Neil defines ‘mission’ as the intentional crossing of barrier from Church to non-church in word and deed for the sake of proclamation of the Gospel. Stephen Neil also said that if everyone is a missionary then no one is a missionary. It might then be logically concluded that if everything is ‘mission’ then nothing is ‘mission’.

Robert Reeves defines ‘mission’ as the sending across cultural barriers by Christ through the church evangelists whose primary function is to make disciples of Jesus Christ by proclaiming the good news about Jesus.

C. Peter Wagner defines “Missionaries” as Christian workers engaged in cross- cultural ministries with evangelistic goals.

I believe is Herbert Kane in his book ‘Global View of Missions’ who defined “Missionary” as being reserved for those who have been called by God to a full-time ministry of the Word and prayer, and who have crossed geographical and/or cultural boundaries to preach the gospel in areas where Jesus Christ is largely, if not entirely, unknown.

Long term career cross cultural missionaries, living outside the United States, are suffering and lacking financial support, I believe, because there is a misunderstanding and a lack of teaching in our Churches of the Missio Dei, God’s mission of taking His message or the Gospel to the Nations. Israel was to be a ‘light to the Nations’ they turned inward and failed. Jesus commissioned the church to ‘go and make disciples in all the world ‘to all nations’. Slowly but surely I see the Church of God USA becoming more like Israel in the Old Testament and only being concerned with their own nation, local communities and local needs.

My prayer is that the Church of God does not turn inward and fail in fulfilling the great commission. We will be more effective and have greater success if there is a clearer understanding and defining of our Church of God Theology of Mission. Our largest contingency is outside the USA, almost 6 times the size. The Assemblies of God have a membership of over 10 million in Brazil, almost 3 times the size of their USA membership. Much of this growth in the Church of God and the AOG can be attributed to “Missionaries”, long term career cross cultural ministers who left their home and families to reside in another culture, learn another language, change their dietary habits, change their living standards, adapt to another environment to be a “light” to share the Gospel, to make disciples and establish churches.

Randy Hurst, who spoke at our General Assembly a couple of years ago and at the Princeton Pike Mission Conference made this statement: ‘A local church's heart for the lost in its community directly relates to its burden for a lost world. A church that commits to supporting missionaries and praying for the lost around the world will have an increased vision for reaching its immediate surroundings.” A logically conclusion from this statement and from our own membership statistic prove that a vision for support long term cross cultural ministers results in growth of local membership, while a turning away or lack of support for cross cultural ministers results in a decrease of growth in local membership.
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2/22/14 11:27 am


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Post Great post, Dennis... OHIOBISHOPBILL
I could not agree more…when I have traveled to countries and met with those whose life has been dedicated significantly to missionary work, I feel humbled and feel such respect for the call of God upon these individuals. You sense it…there is no mistaking.

My use of the word (as you point out) is more in the reminder that we all have a message and as America has become more secularized and less Christian in thought and deed, we are like our missionary brothers and sisters who find themselves in a place where language and customs feel strange and odd.

Excellent thought. Thanks for sharing it.
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2/22/14 12:01 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
As a PK growing up and now as a pastor, I have always had the highest regard for missionaries. I consider them true heroes of the faith, and missions has always been something I have strongly emphasized to the churches I have pastored. To degrade the importance of full-time cross-cultural missionary work would be just about the last thing I would ever wish to do.

That said, when I have striven to emphasize to my congregation the idea of "every Christian a missionary" it has always and only been in an effort to get them to see their divine calling to let their witness shine wherever they may go, whatever they may do as lights in a dark and evil generation. Far from being an attempt to devalue the work of cross-cultural missionaries, it has instead been simply an attempt to challenge believers to follow the Great Commission of Christ right where they are--and, if God perhaps calls them to be a "real" missionary to a foreign field, of course to heed that application of God's call on their life as well.
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Post Re: One thing I would change (long reply) Tracy S Hamilton
Dentanner wrote:
Forgive me for making this so long but I have studied and prayed about this for quite awhile and finally feel comfortable enough to post it.

If I could change one thing in the Church of God. I would reaffirm and clearly define the word and work of “Missionary”. It would also be well to develop a clear “Theology of Missions” that would be taught and promoted from Executive leaders and the local pastors. I think the Missional Movement has high jacked the word ‘missionary’ and uses it much like the word ‘mission’ to describe everything the believer does.

Even though I have said it myself, I think by referring or calling every Christian a missionary we are confusing and compromising the term. Every person has a message but not every person is called to share that message as a pastor, evangelist, teacher, administrator, prophet, apostle or missionary.

I will have to differ (although I understand what he is wanting to say) a bit with Bill’s statement that “we are missionaries in a culture that does not know God, does not know what God has done and are conditioned to be fearful, resisting to any inclusion of God in their thoughts or actions.”

I think it is confusing to compare or name as a missionary, the person who is or has the responsibility of communicating the Gospel in Non Christian USA culture to a person who is communicating the Gospel in the Non Christian Culture of Central Africa, or Eastern Europe, India or Post-Christian Western Europe and UK.

Stephen Neil defines ‘mission’ as the intentional crossing of barrier from Church to non-church in word and deed for the sake of proclamation of the Gospel. Stephen Neil also said that if everyone is a missionary then no one is a missionary. It might then be logically concluded that if everything is ‘mission’ then nothing is ‘mission’.

Robert Reeves defines ‘mission’ as the sending across cultural barriers by Christ through the church evangelists whose primary function is to make disciples of Jesus Christ by proclaiming the good news about Jesus.

C. Peter Wagner defines “Missionaries” as Christian workers engaged in cross- cultural ministries with evangelistic goals.

I believe is Herbert Kane in his book ‘Global View of Missions’ who defined “Missionary” as being reserved for those who have been called by God to a full-time ministry of the Word and prayer, and who have crossed geographical and/or cultural boundaries to preach the gospel in areas where Jesus Christ is largely, if not entirely, unknown.

Long term career cross cultural missionaries, living outside the United States, are suffering and lacking financial support, I believe, because there is a misunderstanding and a lack of teaching in our Churches of the Missio Dei, God’s mission of taking His message or the Gospel to the Nations. Israel was to be a ‘light to the Nations’ they turned inward and failed. Jesus commissioned the church to ‘go and make disciples in all the world ‘to all nations’. Slowly but surely I see the Church of God USA becoming more like Israel in the Old Testament and only being concerned with their own nation, local communities and local needs.

My prayer is that the Church of God does not turn inward and fail in fulfilling the great commission. We will be more effective and have greater success if there is a clearer understanding and defining of our Church of God Theology of Mission. Our largest contingency is outside the USA, almost 6 times the size. The Assemblies of God have a membership of over 10 million in Brazil, almost 3 times the size of their USA membership. Much of this growth in the Church of God and the AOG can be attributed to “Missionaries”, long term career cross cultural ministers who left their home and families to reside in another culture, learn another language, change their dietary habits, change their living standards, adapt to another environment to be a “light” to share the Gospel, to make disciples and establish churches.

Randy Hurst, who spoke at our General Assembly a couple of years ago and at the Princeton Pike Mission Conference made this statement: ‘A local church's heart for the lost in its community directly relates to its burden for a lost world. A church that commits to supporting missionaries and praying for the lost around the world will have an increased vision for reaching its immediate surroundings.” A logically conclusion from this statement and from our own membership statistic prove that a vision for support long term cross cultural ministers results in growth of local membership, while a turning away or lack of support for cross cultural ministers results in a decrease of growth in local membership.


Just wanted to say a huge Thanks for this post. As a pastor of a church that is heavily involved with missions, I have seen an ever growing sense that "we must take care of our own" mentality growing. It is the proverbial "why fly over a mission field to get to a mission field" statement which I think is absolutely ludicrous.

I believe greatly in that as a church is supportive of missions around the world, there is a greater sense of reaching those at home.

Thanks again.
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Post Changed thinking sonofasoldier
To have the EC understand that the CG extends beyond the SE and no matter how much they try to make it so, not every church or state wants to be like the CG in the SE.

I believe one reason CG growth is stymied outside of the the SE is because many overseers try to conform churches and people to be like the churches in the SE which means churches outside the SE will only grow to the level of that mindset. When you go to the NE, NW or out West looking for people who think--or even desire to think--like churches in the SE, you narrow the harvest field tremendously.
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2/25/14 8:11 pm


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Post Changed thinking sonofasoldier
To have the EC understand that the CG extends beyond the SE and no matter how much they try to make it so, not every church or state wants to be like the CG in the SE.

I believe one reason CG growth is stymied outside of the the SE is because many overseers try to conform churches and people to be like the churches in the SE which means churches outside the SE will only grow to the level of that mindset. When you go to the NE, NW or out West looking for people who think--or even desire to think--like churches in the SE, you narrow the harvest field tremendously.
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2/25/14 8:13 pm


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Post After much prayer an reflection, I think I would... Old Time Country Preacher
change the Sunday School bell for a more updated system:

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