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Disappointed by the liberal slant of SOME COG Professors
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Post mytimewillcome
PastorJackson wrote:
I have been in services where it was brought up by my former Pastor who had just graduated from the PTS that they quit teaching the speaking in tongues as being divisive. If not true that great but if it is then there is a huge problem.


Sounds like your "former pastor" liked to get people stirred up like the Music Man in River City.

It always makes for a shoutin' time in a sermon but it is simply not true.

I went to PTS. I experienced more worship and speaking in tongues in class there than the most COG's i've been to.

Read the President of the PTS' book "Pentecostal Spirituality" and see his stance on it. Wait, that would be too hard. Better to take a preachers sermon point as the gospel than read for yourself.
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12/19/12 1:16 am


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Post I shouldn't... KevinWallace
But I will. This has opened pandoras box. Why? Because in our movement there is still an unaddressed elephant in the room that surfaces when we touch these issues.

I believe we are still very much in a transitional place in our movement. The issue is who we will be when we emerge from this time of transition. The reality of this transition has touched every area of our movement from practical commitments, dress, music, methodologies and so on. For many of these transitions I am grateful. Grateful that I don't have to explain extreme legalism and personal pandering to my children one day. I'm grateful that we have become more able to accept diversity and embrace change.

One area that has withstood this press for transition and change is the area of our theological presuppositions. For that I am thankful. I stood in the Pulpit of the church that Charles Finney founded in New York. Today it is led by homosexual leadership and laced with evidence of a backslidden church that has lost its fear of God and ability to rightly divide the Word of God. We are naive and ignorant to think that we, the COG, are above and beyond this type of slide.

Concerning Lee... I enjoyed my brief 2 year stint there. I am on the 14 year plan to which I am approaching the finished line. My wife graduated from Lee Summa Cum Laude... I will graduate thank you Laude.

Lee changed its agenda when it changed its identity... You don't become a "liberal arts" university and maintain the same strict and rigorous ideologies that accompany a "Bible school" or something of that sort.

Lee is a flagship, state of the art, second to none liberal arts university... We need to accept that. I have. As anointed and holy a man of God, Dr. Ricky Moore is, he and his entire religion department face a tremendous task in the coming years to remain "pentecostal". I pastor kids coming out of and going through Lee. They are sharp, well rounded and well prepared for there field of specialty. However, some of them have told me out of their mouths they haven't had a lecture or sermon being baptized in the Holy Spirit. I didn't say all of them. I said some of them. And I didn't say they haven't heard about the Holy Spirit. I said they haven't been readily acquainted with the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This is why I think we needed both/and. We need a great flagship school like Lee, that attracts the brightest minds from all over the world...but I also think we need small, intimate Bible school labs, that while providing rigorous educational processes also provide lab like arenas that develop and shape the prophetic voices that often feel out of place and misfitted in our flagship university. Perhaps that can be achieved within the current structure at Lee. I don't know. But I do think it is safe to say without making the Spirit filled, pentecostal experience part of our doctrine and Lee experience then we shouldn't expect that doctrine or experience to be evident in our churches as the guard changes. Travis I do think some professors need a little fear of God in them as they teach. I applaud Dr. Conn for sending some more "liberal" minds to other places of employment. And for those who "rebuked" David Smith, this is not about not having room at the table for other minds or ways of thinking...this is about the COG claiming its seat at that table and not giving over or in to the other philosophies of theological thought.


Lee is a school we should be proud of. It is also a school we should pray for. If it ever needed a revival it is now. Our times demand it and their futures mandate it.

ps someone may say well you went to Lee so your point is not well taken. I would reply that I left Lee after 2 years to pursue the call of God in another way. I don't recommend it for anyone else. Unless they know they are in disobedience to God if they stay. My advice is 99.999% of the time to finish Lee.
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12/19/12 1:21 am


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Post erudition and liberalism Ed Brewer
This particular thread scratches an intellectual itch I've had for some time, and except for a few notable exceptions, the posts are revelatory of a genuine strain in our movement. Since I began preparing for ministry in earnest more than thirty-two years ago, I have suspected something that has been repeatedly affirmed by empirical evidence - erudition breeds liberalism.

By it's very definition, liberalism is innately focused on the perceptions and appreciations of the individual in relation to the world around him rather than objective standards and absolute truths. The very roots of classical liberalism are antithetical to historical Christianity. When John Locke, the father of philosophical liberalism, posited the idea that the intellect is shaped solely by sensations and reflections rather than inherent spiritual compulsions (tabula rasa), he abjectly denied the Word's assertion that man is influenced and shaped by his primordial spiritual predilections (Proverbs 20:27, 1 Cor 2:11, Job 32:8 - among others). Though Locke's ideas served as fodder for the burgeoning revolutionary movements of the time, orthodox Christianity maintained a distinct separation from his 'enlightened' thinking. Our own Declaration of Independence, though a masterpiece of political and social prose, bears the signature of this kind of liberal emphasis in the demand for '...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' - noble ideas to be sure in the context of feudal abuses, but exposing even there the unhealthy co-mingling of self-interest without subjugation to absolute truth or right.

Not to be misunderstood, critical thinking is essential to the development of theological and moral depth - the problem is the rubric by which the criticism is constrained. Liberalism places perception and the processes of the enlightened intellect squarely as the arbiters of truth, value, and precedence - essentially ascribing to the individual the RIGHT to examine and determine for himself the merit of any given impulse or desire. Conversely, orthodox Christianity begins the discussion with the boundaries established by scripture and historical theological understanding, and merit is determined by objective standards given by revelation of the Holy Spirit in accepted canon. Locke's embrace of Socinianism is notable as a natural extension of this unhealthy elevation of perception over absolutism.

In the context of modern Pentecostal academia, I fear there is a danger of the same weaknesses cloaked as supposed latter day spiritual enlightenment. Rather than focusing on pursuit of the Great Commission and the Great Commandment, liberal theology trends toward the issues that affect the creature in sitio with a desire to inform the creation rather than redeem it. Issues of environmentalism, civil rights, separation of church and state, and many others rate nothing but peripheral mention in Holy Scripture, yet the thrust of modern liberalism demands significant attention be paid lest one be considered 'unenlightened' or worse. As painful as it may seem to some whose views are grounded in this world's perceptions rather than Kingdom priorities, the cause of the Kingdom is not redemption of this creation, but introduction of this creation to the Redeemer. Overt pursuit of intellectual validation by the venerated unredeemed smacks of insecurity at best and epistemological cowardice at the extreme. Paradoxically, even slavery is addressed from the standpoint of how a Christian should relate within it's constraint rather than it's elimination - something that is unthinkable to the modern liberal mindset which place emphasis on the individual's rights over his witness. Unlike modern environmental thought, scripture commissions man to stewardship of nature, not it's veneration. Scripture is less concerned with the political framework of church/state relations than with the authenticity and effectiveness of the church's message. Almost every other issue that demands priority from modern liberal thought requires a degree of spiritual gerrymandering in order to validate it as essentially Christian.

As to the prevalence of liberalism in our institutions of higher learning, my concern is that no matter how politically correct the ideals upon which liberal academics fulminate, they are fundamentally a distraction from the profoundly simply purpose of authentic Christian pedagogy - the development of well prepared, thoroughly equipped witnesses for the cause of Christ that can penetrate the fields of secular endeavor with notable excellence and to perpetuate Christian truth - not redefine it.
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12/19/12 1:25 am


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Post J David Smith
Thank you Kevin and Ed for eloquently communicating what I have been attempting to articulate!

I have stated in every post that I have made, my confidence in both Lee and PTS. They are both tremendous institutions that produce incredible graduates. Dr. Conn and Dr. Land are incredible Spirit filled leaders whom I have great confidence in.

I separate myself from those on this thread who go after the institution itself. My problem is not with Lee or PTS. My issue is an ideology that is becoming dangerously more prevalent among those who are teaching our kids.

Trav, I know that your statement was not directed at me, but I am not here to name names. Again, my purpose of beginning this conversation was not to go after individuals (although a couple of professors have came after me privately). I am calling out a theologically and politically liberal ideology that is becoming more prominent among our ranks. I DO NOT apologize for that attempt. We have been commissioned to "defend the faith." I have a vested interest in both institutions and want to do my part to insure that they remain the great schools that they are.

One of the professors who contacted me is no longer a professor at either Lee or PTS. If some of you could read the communication that was sent to me, it would easily validate the points that I am making. However, it was sent to me privately and I will keep the details of that dialogue private. However, I remain confident in my concern and will continue to defend our Pentecostal faith with everything that is in me. I will not be backed down by intimidating tactics.

(Edited to correct formatting issues from typing from my phone)


Last edited by J David Smith on 12/19/12 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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12/19/12 9:00 am


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Post Link
[quote="Major B. Trammell"][quote="Link"]
Major B. Trammell wrote:

But, technically, that can't happen. Two DNC candidates can only run against each other in a primary. I would not vote in a DNC primary.


I've seen two Democrats as the choices on the city level in Honolulu.
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12/19/12 12:17 pm


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Post SouthernBerean
David,

When you talk about the COG heritage and a Wesleyan Holiness traditional world view, you must understand many in that movement were Populist and not conservatives when it came to the role of government and economics. I’m not in any way implying they were liberals because that’s not what Populism was about. The economic and government hard right worldview is a modern addition to the evangelical world.

In fact A.J. Tomlinson ran for Hamilton County Auditor as a member of the Populist Party in 1893.
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12/19/12 1:51 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
One county I know of in the South had a convicted felon running as an independent candidate for county sheriff on basically nothing more than a marijuana legalization platform. He said as sheriff he would simply not pursue marijuana growers, dealers, or users. The incumbent sheriff was a strongly pro-life Democrat with a good record of law enforcement. Christians and all other sensible persons voted for the Democrat in that case.

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Post PastorJackson
Travis that is good as I have always respected you and never thought of you as one either.
1. I disagree I certainly did not intend on bullying, if you knew me it goes against everything I believe in but I will let that go as agree to disagree and thanks for trying to correct what you saw if it came across as that.
2. It is not professors it was a policy from what I heard. It was not naming individuals just a policy decision.
3. Yes that is what I heard that people are discouraged from teaching about and speaking in tongues.
4. No I was upset at you requiring I name names, when things are told in confidence that is what it is not divulged so I will not tell names of the people who told me.
5. I do not know the answer that is why I asked the question. As I stated I wanted an answer if no one on here knows that is great but to outright dismiss it seems a little over the top. If I just got on this site and I saw this exchange I would not come back nor get involved in discussions as this is the way Christian brothers discuss? I could have been pm'd and asked the questions and so could others instead of the way it was handled.
Well I think I need a break, I am not going to let it ruin my Christmas, I think its time to spend more time with my family concentrate more on my church plant and leave the COG in your guys capable hands. Mele Kalikimaka me ka Hauʻoli Makahiki Hou, see you next year. Love and God bless to Travis and all yes even Elder, and MTWK, LOL.

Travis Johnson wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
I did not take a cheap shot, I stated what I am seeing happening, I have been in services where it was brought up by my former Pastor who had just graduated from the PTS that they quit teaching the speaking in tongues as being divisive. If not true that great but if it is then there is a huge problem. The Assembly's have done that for years now to hear the COG is distressing. If you know anyone that can debunk this please let me know. Thanks and when you said I am bullying people is a smear though you might not have meant it as one since I have never as far as I remember had a issue with you before. God bless and Merry Christmas.


We've never had words. I certainly do no think you an enemy.

I did say you were bullying. Brother, you were. It didn't seem typical. I did not say you are a bully. I don't think you are.

Now, your former pastor _______ said that PENTECOSTAL Theological Seminary (which is led by Steve Land) is no longer teaching speaking in tongues because it's divisive?


Is this all professors?

Is this some professors?

Now, it would seem you aren't even generalizing. It seems you are being specific that this is what is happening at PTS institutionally.

If you say that, you ought to be able to back it up. Instead, you're upset at me for saying, "hey wait a second! Explain that!"

Brother, that needs some fleshing out. Who is teaching that at the PENTECOSTAL Theological Seminary?
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12/19/12 2:21 pm


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Post MTWK PastorJackson
Do you have to be a jerk all the time? You gave a great idea to read a book I knew nothing about then you had to be you.
mytimewillcome wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
I have been in services where it was brought up by my former Pastor who had just graduated from the PTS that they quit teaching the speaking in tongues as being divisive. If not true that great but if it is then there is a huge problem.


Sounds like your "former pastor" liked to get people stirred up like the Music Man in River City.

It always makes for a shoutin' time in a sermon but it is simply not true.

I went to PTS. I experienced more worship and speaking in tongues in class there than the most COG's i've been to.

Read the President of the PTS' book "Pentecostal Spirituality" and see his stance on it. Wait, that would be too hard. Better to take a preachers sermon point as the gospel than read for yourself.
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12/19/12 2:31 pm


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Post Re: No Dog in this one here, but... PastorJackson
Thank you. Well stated.
burned out wrote:
Is it just me, or does anyone else look at this dialogue and think of StringBender defending unions?

Yes it is good to give exact examples when speaking of someone specific; however, I am not sure that one can cast aspersions on someone without issuing a name.

When speaking of an entity I would think that generalizations would be easy to defend with specific details. Instead of giving what should be easy proof that these generalization are untrue, you guys attack those that are making statements/asking questions.

If you speak against the local assembly where I worship, it would not bother me at all. 1) I know the truth about our assembly 2) I can easily dismiss false accusations with factual information. But to get upset and complain about the people asking questions/making false statements, well that would reek of a weak defense...probably making someone listening more prone to believe that there is a problem.

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12/19/12 2:33 pm


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Post theElder
Link wrote:
I've seen two Democrats as the choices on the city level in Honolulu.


That's interesting. I've never seen anything like that happen.

Regardless, however, I would not vote for either. If both are DNC candidates, then both support the murder of children. If I were to vote for either, I would be supporting it, as well, since I would be supporting the platform they're running upon and have pledged to support.[/quote]

Such stupifying ignorance can't be reasoned with!

Thankfully you are not God.
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12/19/12 2:46 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Jacksonville FL.

Local elections do not have primaries.

If no one gets a majority - the top two vote getters face each other in a runoff.

It has often been two Republicans - it could also have been two democrats.

Perhaps Honolulu is the same way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_mayoral_election,_2011
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12/25/12 9:21 am


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