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georgiapath |
[Elder, now take your meds and relapse.. [/quote]
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Acts-dicted Posts: 7604 11/16/12 5:48 am
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It will still get out |
roughridercog |
Best way to spread a secret is to tell someone not to tell it. _________________ Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod Posts: 25305 11/16/12 10:52 am
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Financial Information |
Change Agent |
If the information cannot be disseminated in any form what good is it?
It can't be a topic of discussion in any form at the GA.
It can't be shared or discussed with members of your church.
It can be used for discussion between ministers only.
What is the proper forum for ministers to discuss the financial future of the COG? Is there a proper forum? Could ministers call a meeting of other ministers for discussion purposes? What would be proper way to relay your thoughts on this financial report? Are you to call the AB and get him to relay your thoughts to Cleveland? Are you to call the EC and give them your 2 cents? Is this kin to the governments "don't ask don't tell" policy?
BTW, I have not seen the info but will see it next week. |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 11/16/12 12:49 pm
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theElder |
Bonnie, Cojak, et al, I'll simply refer you to Deans post as to my response questioning why a member couldn't see the report if the pastor was willing to do so.
Sitting with your pastor and reading the report isn't disseminating it in a 'material' form!
This definition is from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
1ma·te·ri·al adjective \mə-ˈtir-ē-əl\
1 a (1): relating to, derived from, or consisting of matter; especially: physical |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1924 11/16/12 5:40 pm
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bonnie knox |
Quote: | "I understand the confidential nature of this information and agree to not download, copy, or disseminate in any form: |
What do you think confidential means?
But I'm not sure we gain a lot by parsing definitions. The EC did not mean it to be available to the laity.
theElder wrote: | Bonnie, Cojak, et al, I'll simply refer you to Deans post as to my response questioning why a member couldn't see the report if the pastor was willing to do so.
Sitting with your pastor and reading the report isn't disseminating it in a 'material' form!
This definition is from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
1ma·te·ri·al adjective \mə-ˈtir-ē-əl\
1 a (1): relating to, derived from, or consisting of matter; especially: physical |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 11/16/12 6:13 pm
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theElder |
Good to know you are the person everyone needs to contact as to what the EC means should another question arise. |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1924 11/16/12 7:24 pm
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Cojak |
Sitting with your pastor and reading the report isn't disseminating it in a 'material' form!
Boy I am glad to know that. Folks would never go against what the EC said.
And to be perfectly honest, I see Bonnie reading the situation much clearer than you, if you seriously think it was meant for the laity to see it.
Of course you know it was meant for credentialed ministers only. That is pretty obvious, but the spin is required to keep you as the one in the know. 'ats okay with me.
I'm headed for Florida and a winter's nap in the sunshine, Sunshine is where every churches finances should be if trust is wanted. _________________ Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 11/16/12 8:37 pm
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Link |
Can you click 'no' but then type 'yes' into the line on the URL and get in that way? _________________ Link |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 11/16/12 9:01 pm
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Hey, Kevin... |
Aaron Scott |
Open it up to ALL MEMBERS and see what numbers you get!
I've been saved and a member since 1968...and I can't see the numbers that a 23-year-old Exhorter can see? That is wrong. Period.
It's not only elitist, but it wrongly excludes those who supply the GREAT MAJORITY of the the money for our Church.
The right thing is to just make it public. Put it out there for all to see--perhaps with a disclaimer (if needed) that "Yes, we know there are plenty of areas in which we can and should do better--and we'll be trying to do just that."
As much as I appreciate the openness here, I cannot help but feel a bit insulted that those of us who fund the Church of God, those of us who have been members for nearly a LIFETIME, are not deemed suitable or trustworthy enough see these numbers. Again, that is wrong.
Last edited by Aaron Scott on 11/18/12 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 11/18/12 2:09 pm
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Change Agent |
Aaron Scott
The COG does not view laiety as capable of handling information on financing. Just because lay people put the majority of the money in does not give them a right to see where the money goes in their opinion.
Now ask the COG officials if they would send their personal giving money to an agency that states they are feeding hungary children in Africa. The first thing they would ask is "how much of the money is going to feed the children"?
You cannot expect people to give blindly (they are accountable to God) without knowing how that money is being used.
I will be looking at the figures shortly but it is my opinion that all tithe paying members should also be able to view those figures. Its not right to keep the people who pay the majority of the money in the dark. |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 11/18/12 6:44 pm
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Some thoughts... |
Aaron Scott |
I'm sure that most members, if they were so inclined, could ask their pastor for the numbers (since I assume this does not break the rules of confidentiality that have been requested).
BUT WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO DO THAT?
I don't want to be ungrateful. I love the Church of God--and I have from the first moment I was conscious of the Church of God. We are the BEST church going, in my opinion. With all our foibles and flaws, we're still the best.
I appreciate that we are taking steps toward greater openness. No doubt, in time it will reach those of us who do not have credentials.
BUT WHY DO WE HAVE TO WAIT?
If we can be trusted to be Sunday School teachers, Youth Leaders, Singers, and so forth...and if we can be depended upon to pay our tithes...and if we are good enough to be members of the Church of God, then why can't WE see the numbers, too?
Now, I'm not going to lose any sleep not knowing just how much is going here or there. And I'm going to keep on paying my tithes. And I'm going to keep on being a faithful member. But if we are going to release this information AT ALL, then release it TO ALL. Please. We love the Church of God (and, truth be told, we love it a whole lot more than some pastors). So let us see the numbers that we have helped to generate. Again, please. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 11/18/12 7:24 pm
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You have to agree to this to see |
Florida Bishop |
[quote]I login to my ministers report today to see the financial info. I then click on Financial Info. I then get this statement below that I have to agree or disagree with.
"I understand the confidential nature of this information and agree to not download, copy, or disseminate in any form:
-I agree with this statement
-I do not agree with this statement"
International Executive Committee, why do we have to agree to this statement to see the information? Friendly Face
Posts: 207
11/15/12 11:20 am
____________________________________________________________
This is a fair question...
The Church of God is not a public company and therefore the general public has no vested interest or expectation to access our financial report.
However, I believe it is the right of every Church of God member to access the report, and see no reason why a minister or Church clerk can not make this possible.
This is the reason for the statement not to "disseminate" this information to the public.
Thank you for your understanding. _________________ J. DAVID [JIM] STEPHENS |
Member Posts: 38 11/19/12 8:00 am
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theElder |
Thank you, Brother Stephens!
Perhaps this will put all the nonsense to rest once and for all. |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1924 11/19/12 10:23 am
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bonnie knox |
Quote: | However, I believe it is the right of every Church of God member to access the report, and see no reason why a minister or Church clerk can not make this possible.
This is the reason for the statement not to "disseminate" this information to the public.
Thank you for your understanding. |
I'm resisting the urge to "go Lord Chancellor" on you when you say "I believe..."
Are you speaking in your capacity as a member of the EC? Or is that your personal take? And how would that work out in practice. If a pastor has 20 members who want to see it, does he sit with each one while they mull over it (since he can't actually make a copy of it)? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 11/19/12 10:39 am
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bonnie knox |
Quote: | Perhaps, the Executive Committee should have the webmaster edit that agreement so as to not prohibit the dissemination or copy and dissemination of the report to Church of God members who request it. |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 11/19/12 11:26 am
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Well stated, Major |
bonnie knox |
Major B. Trammell wrote: | Florida Bishop wrote: | I login to my ministers report today to see the financial info. I then click on Financial Info. I then get this statement below that I have to agree or disagree with.
"I understand the confidential nature of this information and agree to not download, copy, or disseminate in any form:
-I agree with this statement
-I do not agree with this statement"
International Executive Committee, why do we have to agree to this statement to see the information? Friendly Face
Posts: 207
11/15/12 11:20 am
____________________________________________________________
This is a fair question...
The Church of God is not a public company and therefore the general public has no vested interest or expectation to access our financial report.
However, I believe it is the right of every Church of God member to access the report, and see no reason why a minister or Church clerk can not make this possible.
This is the reason for the statement not to "disseminate" this information to the public.
Thank you for your understanding. |
Bishop Stephens,
I appreciate your participation on this forum. I respect the fact that- if no one else is- at the very least, you are open-minded enough to roll up your sleeves and get in the discussion with the rest of us and provide answers when they are requested, as opposed to "officially" ignoring this venue like the plague and any other where questions are asked and legitimate concerns and issues addressed (but unofficially, having someone keep you informed on what's being discussed).
That's good stuff.
I am also ready to appreciate the fact that the Executive Committee has stepped up to the plate and has decided to comply with the mandate of the General Assembly after that same mandate has been ignored for years.
I appreciate your words, in this thread. It IS the right of every Church of God member to access the report.
I also appreciate the fact that you see no reason why a minister or Church clerk cannot make that happen.
However, the agreement, as written, that the viewer must agree to in order to see the report, contradicts your statement.
That may not have been the intent. But, it's still the reality.
Perhaps, the Executive Committee should have the webmaster edit that agreement so as to not prohibit the dissemination or copy and dissemination of the report to Church of God members who request it.
As it stands now, according to the words of the agreement, the members of the Church of God are forbidden and prohibited from viewing this report. In order for them to see it, the person giving access will, by necessity, have to violate the terms he agreed to in order to see it, himself, in the first place.
Until that agreement is changed and any member of the Church of God is able to receive a copy of the report, then this "huge step forward" is really much ado about nothing.
It can only be a huge step toward almost abiding by the mandate of the General Assembly. |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 11/19/12 11:27 am
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theElder |
Well, Bishop Stephens, I should have known not to be so hopeful that your post would settle the matter!
Some folks can't understand the plain meaning of words even when the dictionary definitions for those words are posted in this same thread.
Perhaps if you invited Major and Bonnie to your office (all expenses paid by you of course) for a personal viewing on your office computer, that would help them understand what you are saying.
But then, probably not! |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1924 11/19/12 12:26 pm
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Major |
JimmieDavis |
We are glad that you suddenly have become a supporter of the minutes.
maybe that means you are willing to support the declaration of faith and the practice commitments.
Otherwise your statements are hypocritical.
If you want the committee to comply, you should to or be quite. |
Friendly Face Posts: 219 11/19/12 1:57 pm
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Re: Major |
Cojak |
JimmieDavis wrote: | We are glad that you suddenly have become a supporter of the minutes.
maybe that means you are willing to support the declaration of faith and the practice commitments.
Otherwise your statements are hypocritical.
If you want the committee to comply, you should to or be quite. |
Amazing.. _________________ Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 11/19/12 2:50 pm
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Re: Major |
bonnie knox |
JimmieDavis wrote: |
If you want the committee to comply, you should to or be quite. |
Oh, he is quite...
(and it's too, too) |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 11/19/12 6:33 pm
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