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bradfreeman |
Each church has its own reasons for being what it is. Maybe there are control issues. Maybe leadership is weak. Maybe there are just too few people in the area. Maybe the church is stuck in 1955.
As has been stated here already...church should provide you with something. You should get some benefit out of it. It shouldn't be a chore. You, your wife, your kids should leave feeling benefited by what happened there. If not, move on and find a well-spring of life.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
9/20/12 8:54 pm
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| Re: Why do small churches stay small? |
bradfreeman |
| InspiredHillbilly wrote: | | Who says it's supposed to grow numerically to show that the church is strong spiritually? |
Jesus says it.
Jesus said He would build His church. He wasn't and isn't looking for just 25 super-spiritual, glow-in-the-dark, fire-ball followers. He wants whosoever will. He wants us to grow deeper and wider! If we're not growing wider and there are lost people nearby, something is wrong.
The early church was strong and was consistently growing in number...everywhere...even in the face of serious persecution. Why? Because God's will is for people to be saved...and discipled!
Something is seriously wrong when a church says "we had 118 saved last year" and only 25 attend their meetings...the church is NOT strong spiritually if it can't keep people. Jesus lost 1 out of 12. We lose 11 out of 12. Why do they "run out" and "pull away"? One reason the new wine "runs out" and the patch "pulls away" is we're trying to put new wine and a new patch (grace) in old wineskins and on an old cloth (Law).
If Jesus loses just 1 out of 100 He goes and gets it back. We lose 89 out of 100 and generally blame the sheep for wandering off and not being willing to gut-it-out.
| Quote: | | Everything that gets bigger isn't necessarily growing. |
While you and your 24 other people there on Sunday morning may enjoy calling the big church a big dead dog, spiritually growing things don't stay the same size, spiritually or numerically or consistently shrink. The seed bears fruit. The kingdom of God grows.
Only pruning will cut you back. Pruning may make you smaller briefly, but the purpose of it is for increase. Over time, we should be adding to our numbers and growing spiritually.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
9/20/12 9:18 pm
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whoiam |
I currently attend a small church. We run around 20-25 on Sunday morning.
I have been in ministry for several years now. I grew up in the "small" church that I currently attend. My last two positions were at churches of 300 and 500 in attendance. I resigned my position as an AS Pastor of a good size church to go back to my home church to assist the current pastor who is ill.
So from someone who has seen both large and small congregations, here is my view:
The church will always be small unless the people get some motivation behind them. A new pastor could come in tomorrow and try his hardest to put some things in motion that would help in attendance, but without the people backing him 100% the church will not grow.
Example: "The red-back hymnal is the only song book the church can sing out of." This is the churches belief!
So every service we sing out of the red-back hymnal.
The choir leader cannot carry a tune in a bucket, but to keep his wife as the piano player, because she is the only one in the church who can play the piano, we don't say anything. Thus we have the same bad music every service.
The red-back hymnal is not the only group of songs that was inspired by God. Don't get me wrong, I grew up on these songs. I still love them today and enjoy hearing them. But the church needs to realize they can sing any song that was inspired by God and God will still move in the service.
The music sets the tone of the service. Praise and Worship is what invites God into the service. When Paul and Silas was in prison the word says that they begin to pray and sing. Their Praise and Worship is what set them free from prison and also saved those around them.
When you open the service singing Where Could I Go But to the Lord out of the red-back hymnal, you can bet the service is going to be about as slow as the versus in this song. Don't get me wrong, I believe there is still Power in the Blood and God can move when we sing this song, but the church has got to get over the red-back being the only God inspired song book.
About a week ago someone got up and said that other churches have left the red-back hymnal behind. What they were trying to say was that the other churches had left "God's" music behind and now they are singing all this worldly stuff. I wanted to stand up and say, NO, the other churches changed with the times. The church of 500 that I was the AS Pastor at still sang the old songs in the services but we also sang some newer songs as well. The music minister was very welcoming of the older saints and would include two red-back hymnal songs in the worship service and two to three newer songs in the service.
Next Example:Most small churches have no pastors council either the pastor makes all the decisions or a group of people make all the decisions.
If the church has no pastor’s council, like our church, then everything that goes wrong is blamed on the pastor. Or if a group of people make the decisions they are considered the ones who rule the church. This hurts attendance. People can see that a church has no order thus growth does not happen.
Next Example: No order of service. In smaller churches the church does not have an order of service. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe we can control what God does in a service. If God moves he moves.
We have what the small church calls order. We open service with singing, then offering, then song specials, then preaching, then altar service. But here is what normally happens, during song service sister so and so gets up and sings her special then she wants to testify a little bit. What she calls a testimony is really her way at getting even with the other sister so and so for something she did to her.
Once again this hurts attendance.
Next Example: Small church people are happy with being small.
First time visitor shows up to church and not one church member speaks to them or shakes their hand to welcome them. Most of the time they are in their little groups that they have in church and are to busy talking to speak to a visitor.
Once again this hurts attendance. All visitors want to feel welcomed.
I could go on and on about this. This is not just from one churches perspective. I've seen it in many small churches.
I will add this. I grew up in a small church. I felt the calling of God on my life to preach. I began to prepare myself for the call the only way I knew how. I preached my first sermon in the small church and thought I was the next best thing to happen to the church. God chose to move me out of the small church into a church of around 350 at the time for what I thought would just be a stepping stone for me to get my first church. I found out different. God moved me to grow me. I had a lot of growing up to do, spiritually and personally. I spent 5 years of my life under one of the greatest ministers/pastors that anyone could have. This man taught me by the leading of God.
When I left the small church years ago to follow what God had for me I thought in no time that I would be pastoring a church. What I found out was that I was not ready to pastor. I had to grow up!
I think a lot of small church pastors and church members need to grow up. Growing up moves us from a self-prospective into an all prospective.
A lot of times a small church pastor does not have anything to do with other churches or pastors in their district. I recommend contacting your district pastor or another pastor in your area. Let that pastor know that you need a mentor. You need someone who has been there, someone who has pastored the small church and been successful.
Will what that pastor did at his small church have the same growth results at your church? Probably not. Don't go to him looking for what he did to get growth. |
Newbie
Posts: 2
9/21/12 12:03 pm
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| Re: Why do small churches stay small? |
InspiredHillbilly |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | InspiredHillbilly wrote: | | Who says it's supposed to grow numerically to show that the church is strong spiritually? |
Jesus says it.
Jesus said He would build His church. He wasn't and isn't looking for just 25 super-spiritual, glow-in-the-dark, fire-ball followers. He wants whosoever will. He wants us to grow deeper and wider! If we're not growing wider and there are lost people nearby, something is wrong.
The early church was strong and was consistently growing in number...everywhere...even in the face of serious persecution. Why? Because God's will is for people to be saved...and discipled!
Something is seriously wrong when a church says "we had 118 saved last year" and only 25 attend their meetings...the church is NOT strong spiritually if it can't keep people. Jesus lost 1 out of 12. We lose 11 out of 12. Why do they "run out" and "pull away"? One reason the new wine "runs out" and the patch "pulls away" is we're trying to put new wine and a new patch (grace) in old wineskins and on an old cloth (Law).
If Jesus loses just 1 out of 100 He goes and gets it back. We lose 89 out of 100 and generally blame the sheep for wandering off and not being willing to gut-it-out.
| Quote: | | Everything that gets bigger isn't necessarily growing. |
While you and your 24 other people there on Sunday morning may enjoy calling the big church a big dead dog, spiritually growing things don't stay the same size, spiritually or numerically or consistently shrink. The seed bears fruit. The kingdom of God grows.
Only pruning will cut you back. Pruning may make you smaller briefly, but the purpose of it is for increase. Over time, we should be adding to our numbers and growing spiritually. |
You still gave no proof Scripturally that if a church is growing spiritually it will always end up with bigger numbers... none whatsoever.... not that it surprises me.
_________________
Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
9/21/12 1:40 pm
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| Re: Why do small churches stay small? |
bradfreeman |
| InspiredHillbilly wrote: | | You still gave no proof Scripturally that if a church is growing spiritually it will always end up with bigger numbers... none whatsoever.... not that it surprises me. |
 Yeah, cuz I never quote any scripture in support of my positions!!!
Here's a scriptural example of church growth:
The Beginning:
Acts 2:13 When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying ; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. 15 At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together ), and said,
120 in the crowd.
The End:
Rev. 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." 14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands ; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, " Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Quite a few more in the crowd.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
9/21/12 3:32 pm
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| Re: Revuriah... |
georgiapath |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | It's all Kingdom work. They come to your church, they are touched, the determine to "get back in church"...AND THEY DO...just not at your church. Your church, however, played a role.
I remember Ray H. Hughes telling about a revival he went to where he didn't have much results. A short while after, another preacher went there and just had great results. RHH was whining about it to God, saying, "God, I plowed the field, etc." God spoke to him and said, "A record is being kept" (or something like that. So whether it shows up on earth's radar, God is not unfaithful to forget your labor of love.
Lastly, I grew up in "small" churches. Yes, we got better over the years in terms of Children's Church, Sunday School, music, etc. But I have always felt that I was the most privileged person on earth to have been permitted to grow up "in the House of the Lord." I loved the Church of God--and I came up during the "Golden Age," you might say, of our denomination--a mixture of modern times and full-bore Pentecostal passion.
Your children may very well be receiving FAR MORE than they ever would if they went to a church that had all the bells and whistles. I sure did. I seldom knew what it was for the children to have their own church--I got to experience the same church the adults did, and I grew to love it with all my heart. |
I grew up in a small church too. Too many chuirches want to entertain the youth now, and that's all they are getting out of it. Sad in my opinion. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7604
9/22/12 10:09 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| That could be true. I don't really know about many of the churches. I know about a few.I do believe it is could to create an environment that is appealing for the young. Just like you and me enjoy "our" music or "our" style of preaching. We like to be entertained as well and if our services are boring, we usually find another place. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
9/24/12 6:39 am
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itzme |
| Most small churches are that way because they choose to be. They would never say that with there words but actions speak louder. Most churches don't grow because those that are there are not trying to grow. I believe that growth in numbers will reflect people becoming Christ followers or beginning the journey to find Him. Having a Holy Ghost, red hot, shout your hair down service every time you meet and then do nothing with it outside the walls of the church except tell people what a great service you had doesn't change anything in others lives. Change your way of thinking and your leadership style because it's not being effective. God wants the church to grow. |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 77
9/24/12 9:23 am
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| Re: Why do small churches stay small? |
InspiredHillbilly |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | InspiredHillbilly wrote: | | You still gave no proof Scripturally that if a church is growing spiritually it will always end up with bigger numbers... none whatsoever.... not that it surprises me. |
Yeah, cuz I never quote any scripture in support of my positions!!!
Here's a scriptural example of church growth:
The Beginning:
Acts 2:13 When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying ; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. 15 At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together ), and said,
120 in the crowd.
The End:
Rev. 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." 14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands ; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, " Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Quite a few more in the crowd. |
Great scriptures, but they sure don't present a standing Spiritual Principle that if a church is growing spiritually it will always show numerically. As I said before, sometimes numeric growth will be a by-product, but it is not always a direct outcome... there are too many factors to say that it's always true.
_________________
Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
9/24/12 10:43 am
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| Re: Why do small churches stay small? |
MARK317 |
| COGLayman wrote: | From everything I have seen, small churches (under 100) stay small. Especially once they have some age on them, say 15 or 20 years old. Why is that? A church may run 50 people and run that for years, even in a town where thousands of unchurched people live. This is kind of the norm.
Why do most small churches stay small, but a few take off? There are exceptions to every rule but in general small churches (pastors and/or members) do things that cause them to stay small. However is seems most people in these churches really don't have a clue as to why they stay small. They do have a lot of excuses.
There are many pastors that know what it takes to build a church. Why is it that when they share these things with the small churches that most of the time it doesn't make a difference? They small churches don't do anything differently despite hearing from someone who knows what they are talking about? Yet, they usually say they really want to grow.
I think the biggest reason churches don't grow it that there is a lack of effective leadership. That doesn't mean anyone is a bad person, they just lack the necessary skills to bring growth. What would it take for someone to have those skills?
Why don't most small churches grow? What do you think? |
I guess your pen name explains your expertise on what small Churches and their leaders are doing. If you are a layman, you may have an opinion, but you know nothing about the small Church. I Pastor a small Church, and I would appreciate you not clumping us all together. I don't know if I am an effective leader, but I do know the effort and the blood sweat and tears that I and many others put in to what we do.
Today many laypeople have a consumer mentality, a buffet-line thought process. " What can this Church offer me"? Instead of bringing those children and teens and offering the Church something to work with. I wonder if it ever crosses anyone's mind " Hey, maybe me and my family can help this Church'? I have had people visit and tell me they love the Church and the ministry, but there wasn't a big enough youth group. I guess Ministry doesn't count anymore. What a refreshing idea to take your family to a small Church and help instead of looking for what the Church can do for you. Most small Churches wouldn't stay small if so many didn't have the same view toward the Church as they do the govornment, 'What can you give us"? This garbage has carried into the Church world. In most small Churches that Pastor is already working hard and working with what he has. That's my world. So when I see a post like yours I feel strong resentment and a sickening stomach of the way many view Churches like mine. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 544
9/24/12 12:12 pm
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| Another reason... |
Aaron Scott |
Do a little mental experiment with me....
You start a small church in an area. At first, you are very nearly the only game in town. Of course, like most towns, even if you were the ONLY church, there will be plenty who do not come to church.
Now, fast forward 20 years. You've gained a solid membership...but times and demographics have changed. You are serving people who came to your church maybe 15 years ago. They came because you offered a certain style or what have you...they liked it and they stayed.
In those years, other churches have arisen that serve the needs of the current demographics, that reach people who have different tastes in music, etc. So if you change up to reach that same niche, you wind up not only alienating the people who signed on at your church for a particular style...but you wind up doing WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING...and you wind up perhaps tussling over the same pool of potential church-goers.
In time, that cutting edge, "cool" church will become aged and dated itself. The CHURCH (as in the universal church) will ALWAYS go on and on and on, but the various "outposts" (i.e., the various local churches) will come and go, serving their purposes, ministering faithfully, etc.
The truth is that you can be in a city that has 100,000 people, be the ONLY church in town...and you are NOT going to have 100,000 people attending your church. Not only is it impractical, but you don't NEARLY meet the many varied needs of all those people. So you find a group that works with your authentic ministerial style...and you serve them as long as the Lord leads.
If you're a red back church, don't try to be a Clint Brown church. People detest inauthentic worship. BE WHO YOU ARE. You may serve only 50 people, but if you weren't there, they wouldn't get served at all...or would have to go to churches where the music or style is very much at odds with what they want.
Those people who claim the Redbackers should adapt, just ask yourself how your 20somethings who are used to "cool" music would adapt--or whether they should HAVE to adapt--to the Red back. I think the answer is no. Let every church serve those it attracts, and those the Lord brings to them.
In the Book of Revelation, some of the churches appeared to be quite small. It's a shame they didn't have our fancy How To books on church growth, isn't it? Why, think what they could have done for the Lord!
And yet Jesus was pleased with some of them.
Just do what pleases Jesus and the rest will take care of itself. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
9/24/12 1:15 pm
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| Re: Why do small churches stay small? |
revuriah |
| MARK317 wrote: | | COGLayman wrote: | From everything I have seen, small churches (under 100) stay small. Especially once they have some age on them, say 15 or 20 years old. Why is that? A church may run 50 people and run that for years, even in a town where thousands of unchurched people live. This is kind of the norm.
Why do most small churches stay small, but a few take off? There are exceptions to every rule but in general small churches (pastors and/or members) do things that cause them to stay small. However is seems most people in these churches really don't have a clue as to why they stay small. They do have a lot of excuses.
There are many pastors that know what it takes to build a church. Why is it that when they share these things with the small churches that most of the time it doesn't make a difference? They small churches don't do anything differently despite hearing from someone who knows what they are talking about? Yet, they usually say they really want to grow.
I think the biggest reason churches don't grow it that there is a lack of effective leadership. That doesn't mean anyone is a bad person, they just lack the necessary skills to bring growth. What would it take for someone to have those skills?
Why don't most small churches grow? What do you think? |
I guess your pen name explains your expertise on what small Churches and their leaders are doing. If you are a layman, you may have an opinion, but you know nothing about the small Church. I Pastor a small Church, and I would appreciate you not clumping us all together. I don't know if I am an effective leader, but I do know the effort and the blood sweat and tears that I and many others put in to what we do.
Today many laypeople have a consumer mentality, a buffet-line thought process. " What can this Church offer me"? Instead of bringing those children and teens and offering the Church something to work with. I wonder if it ever crosses anyone's mind " Hey, maybe me and my family can help this Church'? I have had people visit and tell me they love the Church and the ministry, but there wasn't a big enough youth group. I guess Ministry doesn't count anymore. What a refreshing idea to take your family to a small Church and help instead of looking for what the Church can do for you. Most small Churches wouldn't stay small if so many didn't have the same view toward the Church as they do the govornment, 'What can you give us"? This garbage has carried into the Church world. In most small Churches that Pastor is already working hard and working with what he has. That's my world. So when I see a post like yours I feel strong resentment and a sickening stomach of the way many view Churches like mine. |
Great post, Mark317. I too pastor a small church. I wish it wasn't, and I am working my butt off like it depends on me to grow it (And praying like it depends on God, because it does!). I pastor this church, and work full time, and have a wife and 4 kids to care for. It isn't easy building a church.
I've been here 2 years at a church that was in serious decline, near to dying. We are digging out, but we've seen growth, not just in attendees, but new salvations. But it's taken prayer and hard work.
It's not necessarily a lack of skill. Granted, this is my first church, so I am learning as I go, but I've found that I cannot do it all. I have to have people who are revived and on fire. If they don't want to grow, my work will be undermined by their lack of concern. It's hard when new people come in, love the pastor, but don't see the same passion in the people. Too many times, I think people are content with the status quo. They say differently, but actions say otherwise.
Fortunately, we have a real spirit of revival. My people are becoming more outward-focused. They are witnessing and leading people to Jesus. I am doing the same, and finally, we are seeing things changing. Praise God!
There is only so much a pastor can do. The stats on visitors jump when it's members inviting as opposed to the preacher.
This church was a thriving, growing place at one time. It started in the 50's, and I found photos from then, probably 150-200 people all in front of the church. We may not see those numbers under my watch, but we will grow.
_________________
The World As I See It
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Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3682
9/24/12 2:34 pm
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| Re: Why do small churches stay small? |
COGLayman |
| revuriah wrote: | | MARK317 wrote: | | COGLayman wrote: | From everything I have seen, small churches (under 100) stay small. Especially once they have some age on them, say 15 or 20 years old. Why is that? A church may run 50 people and run that for years, even in a town where thousands of unchurched people live. This is kind of the norm.
Why do most small churches stay small, but a few take off? There are exceptions to every rule but in general small churches (pastors and/or members) do things that cause them to stay small. However is seems most people in these churches really don't have a clue as to why they stay small. They do have a lot of excuses.
There are many pastors that know what it takes to build a church. Why is it that when they share these things with the small churches that most of the time it doesn't make a difference? They small churches don't do anything differently despite hearing from someone who knows what they are talking about? Yet, they usually say they really want to grow.
I think the biggest reason churches don't grow it that there is a lack of effective leadership. That doesn't mean anyone is a bad person, they just lack the necessary skills to bring growth. What would it take for someone to have those skills?
Why don't most small churches grow? What do you think? |
I guess your pen name explains your expertise on what small Churches and their leaders are doing. If you are a layman, you may have an opinion, but you know nothing about the small Church. I Pastor a small Church, and I would appreciate you not clumping us all together. I don't know if I am an effective leader, but I do know the effort and the blood sweat and tears that I and many others put in to what we do.
Today many laypeople have a consumer mentality, a buffet-line thought process. " What can this Church offer me"? Instead of bringing those children and teens and offering the Church something to work with. I wonder if it ever crosses anyone's mind " Hey, maybe me and my family can help this Church'? I have had people visit and tell me they love the Church and the ministry, but there wasn't a big enough youth group. I guess Ministry doesn't count anymore. What a refreshing idea to take your family to a small Church and help instead of looking for what the Church can do for you. Most small Churches wouldn't stay small if so many didn't have the same view toward the Church as they do the govornment, 'What can you give us"? This garbage has carried into the Church world. In most small Churches that Pastor is already working hard and working with what he has. That's my world. So when I see a post like yours I feel strong resentment and a sickening stomach of the way many view Churches like mine. |
Great post, Mark317. I too pastor a small church. I wish it wasn't, and I am working my butt off like it depends on me to grow it (And praying like it depends on God, because it does!). I pastor this church, and work full time, and have a wife and 4 kids to care for. It isn't easy building a church.
I've been here 2 years at a church that was in serious decline, near to dying. We are digging out, but we've seen growth, not just in attendees, but new salvations. But it's taken prayer and hard work.
It's not necessarily a lack of skill. Granted, this is my first church, so I am learning as I go, but I've found that I cannot do it all. I have to have people who are revived and on fire. If they don't want to grow, my work will be undermined by their lack of concern. It's hard when new people come in, love the pastor, but don't see the same passion in the people. Too many times, I think people are content with the status quo. They say differently, but actions say otherwise.
Fortunately, we have a real spirit of revival. My people are becoming more outward-focused. They are witnessing and leading people to Jesus. I am doing the same, and finally, we are seeing things changing. Praise God!
There is only so much a pastor can do. The stats on visitors jump when it's members inviting as opposed to the preacher.
This church was a thriving, growing place at one time. It started in the 50's, and I found photos from then, probably 150-200 people all in front of the church. We may not see those numbers under my watch, but we will grow. |
Mark 317 & revuriah,
Are you saying that a layman does not know have any expertise on small churches and what their pastors are doing? Really?
I never said that pastors of small churches do not work hard. Some do, some don't. What I said is I see a lack of "effective leadership". Obviously if a church was 50 ten years ago and it is still 50 today, the leadership has not been effective in growing the church. There may be many reasons, but it is simply a statement of fact.
In my opinion, growing a church takes more than hard work. At the center of a large church that has grown from a small church is usually an effective pastor. If you take 100 growing churches, what kinds of things did it take to grow the church? What about the leadership in these churches is similar?
There are many traits of effective leadership. One big one is that a pastor must be a "people person". That is someone who really loves people. This is one trait I have seen in pastors of growing churches. There are also other similar traits. Why do you think? |
Friendly Face
Posts: 256
9/24/12 3:10 pm
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| Re: Why do small churches stay small? |
revuriah |
| COGLayman wrote: | | revuriah wrote: | | MARK317 wrote: | | COGLayman wrote: | From everything I have seen, small churches (under 100) stay small. Especially once they have some age on them, say 15 or 20 years old. Why is that? A church may run 50 people and run that for years, even in a town where thousands of unchurched people live. This is kind of the norm.
Why do most small churches stay small, but a few take off? There are exceptions to every rule but in general small churches (pastors and/or members) do things that cause them to stay small. However is seems most people in these churches really don't have a clue as to why they stay small. They do have a lot of excuses.
There are many pastors that know what it takes to build a church. Why is it that when they share these things with the small churches that most of the time it doesn't make a difference? They small churches don't do anything differently despite hearing from someone who knows what they are talking about? Yet, they usually say they really want to grow.
I think the biggest reason churches don't grow it that there is a lack of effective leadership. That doesn't mean anyone is a bad person, they just lack the necessary skills to bring growth. What would it take for someone to have those skills?
Why don't most small churches grow? What do you think? |
I guess your pen name explains your expertise on what small Churches and their leaders are doing. If you are a layman, you may have an opinion, but you know nothing about the small Church. I Pastor a small Church, and I would appreciate you not clumping us all together. I don't know if I am an effective leader, but I do know the effort and the blood sweat and tears that I and many others put in to what we do.
Today many laypeople have a consumer mentality, a buffet-line thought process. " What can this Church offer me"? Instead of bringing those children and teens and offering the Church something to work with. I wonder if it ever crosses anyone's mind " Hey, maybe me and my family can help this Church'? I have had people visit and tell me they love the Church and the ministry, but there wasn't a big enough youth group. I guess Ministry doesn't count anymore. What a refreshing idea to take your family to a small Church and help instead of looking for what the Church can do for you. Most small Churches wouldn't stay small if so many didn't have the same view toward the Church as they do the govornment, 'What can you give us"? This garbage has carried into the Church world. In most small Churches that Pastor is already working hard and working with what he has. That's my world. So when I see a post like yours I feel strong resentment and a sickening stomach of the way many view Churches like mine. |
Great post, Mark317. I too pastor a small church. I wish it wasn't, and I am working my butt off like it depends on me to grow it (And praying like it depends on God, because it does!). I pastor this church, and work full time, and have a wife and 4 kids to care for. It isn't easy building a church.
I've been here 2 years at a church that was in serious decline, near to dying. We are digging out, but we've seen growth, not just in attendees, but new salvations. But it's taken prayer and hard work.
It's not necessarily a lack of skill. Granted, this is my first church, so I am learning as I go, but I've found that I cannot do it all. I have to have people who are revived and on fire. If they don't want to grow, my work will be undermined by their lack of concern. It's hard when new people come in, love the pastor, but don't see the same passion in the people. Too many times, I think people are content with the status quo. They say differently, but actions say otherwise.
Fortunately, we have a real spirit of revival. My people are becoming more outward-focused. They are witnessing and leading people to Jesus. I am doing the same, and finally, we are seeing things changing. Praise God!
There is only so much a pastor can do. The stats on visitors jump when it's members inviting as opposed to the preacher.
This church was a thriving, growing place at one time. It started in the 50's, and I found photos from then, probably 150-200 people all in front of the church. We may not see those numbers under my watch, but we will grow. |
Mark 317 & revuriah,
Are you saying that a layman does not know have any expertise on small churches and what their pastors are doing? Really?
I never said that pastors of small churches do not work hard. Some do, some don't. What I said is I see a lack of "effective leadership". Obviously if a church was 50 ten years ago and it is still 50 today, the leadership has not been effective in growing the church. There may be many reasons, but it is simply a statement of fact.
In my opinion, growing a church takes more than hard work. At the center of a large church that has grown from a small church is usually an effective pastor. If you take 100 growing churches, what kinds of things did it take to grow the church? What about the leadership in these churches is similar?
There are many traits of effective leadership. One big one is that a pastor must be a "people person". That is someone who really loves people. This is one trait I have seen in pastors of growing churches. There are also other similar traits. Why do you think? |
Who says the pastor isn't a "people person"? I certainly am, though I disagree one must be outgoing. I do believe God still picks unlikely people to do extraordinary things.
If someone is a lousy pastor, or missed his calling, of course that will affect results and growth. I wrote from the perspective of a pastor doing what God has called him to do. However, people are people, and they do, or don't do, what they want. If there are folks in the church who simply decide to sit back and do nothing, will that not have an effect on what the pastor is trying to do? I think so. I don't think it's fair to lay it all on the pastor. There are other factors to consider.
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Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3682
9/24/12 3:19 pm
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| Small Church |
Change Agent |
I see many pastors that are not able to partner with other leaders to get all the church jobs done that need to be done. The one man show pastor does not know that they need to partner with other leaders to lead the church. Having elders could take some of the load off the pastor. Elders should make sermon preparation and the pastors life much easier. Let the team do some of the worrying that you have been doing as a pastor.
According to the scriptures a pastor is called to be a shepherd and to pray, teach and preach. When you find a pastor doing more than the above you will find an overstressed pastor and usually a small church. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
9/24/12 3:34 pm
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diakoneo |
People person...I wonder if Paul or Peter were "people persons"??? Where does this mess come from?
Shouldn't church growth be a natural(Spiritual) result of our relationship with God?
Do we still wonder where babies come from? Maybe if we get the right music, etc...
Why do we want to force something to occur, that is going to take a miracle of God anyway? Many of the small churches we are talking about are past the age of child-bearing. We need to take some lessons from Abraham and stop messing with Hagar. I know, I took that scripture way out of context but at least I tried to apply the scripture to growth, rather than world business models. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
9/24/12 5:37 pm
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