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Quiet Wyatt |
I have never heard anybody ever be able to say what GOOD thing the denomination or the EC has to gain from withholding this information. What possible benefit is there to keeping the finances a secret?
Seriously, if anyone knows of a truly GOOD (morally upright) thing to be gained by it, please tell me. I honestly can't think of anything GOOD (and LOTS of bad) resulting from keeping it all a big secret. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12809
8/13/11 5:21 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| So the fig leaf stays on. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12809
8/13/11 5:32 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| How about just releasing the most recent years? It just reflects poorly on us all to not release it. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12809
8/13/11 5:33 pm
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Joshua Henson |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Sorry Josh - my church, right or wrong - while noble - is the sign of an immature person.
Nathan told David "Thou art the man".
We need some holy Nathan's to show the better way to leadership - with the right spirit, of course, as Nathan had.
"Yes-man-ism" got us in the mess we are in. It won't help us get out of it. We need men - in leadership or not - that will lead the way to walking our talk. If our words, our creeds, aren't worth the paper they are written on - we need to tear them up and quit pretending they do mean something.  |
The burden of support of the covenant of between "the church I pastor" and the Church of God is my responsibility. When its all said done, I have to make that decision.
There are certain non-negotiables in "the church I pastor". Very high on that list is that as long as I am pastor of "the church I pastor", there is no question about it: we will support our covenant with the COG. You can call it "yes-man-ism" or "immaturity", but I take direct responsibility for "the church I pastor".
So by "my church" and "my congregation", I am taking the responsibility as the leader to remain in covenant. You can think somehow I think I'm taking ownership of "the church I pastor", when I reality I'm taking responsibility for "the church I pastor." I can't blame the sheep for not being faithful to the covenant. It's me and only me. Let's talk about the Minutes on this issue. This is in the minutes too. It's easier to criticize the denomination than criticize ourselves for our double standard.
As far as Nathan and "Thou are the man." You're completely right, we need some spiritual Nathans who will call into question men who break their covenant (Davids).
What does it say about an organization when a person supports the movement and gets hammered for it? If supporting my leadership is "Yes-man-ism" then I'll gladly accept the label. If taking 100% responsibility for the covenant between "the church I pastor" and the Church of God is "immaturity", then I'll gladly accept that label too.
Lastly, we do need men who will walk their talk. This begins at home. We can't fix Cleveland until we get our own houses in order.
_________________
Joshua Henson
Senior Pastor at Pensacola Worship Center
www.pwccog.com
www.ecclesialleadership.com |
Friendly Face
Posts: 379
8/13/11 6:31 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
What exactly are you supporting?
If you are OK with HQ clearly not abiding by the Minutes - what exactly is it that you support?
State Offices have leaders because the minutes direct them to have leaders - so I guess that is a part of the minutes that you wholeheartedly support.
I just can't understand why you don't want to support all of it.
What other items do you feel the COG need not abide by?
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16637
8/13/11 7:10 pm
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Joshua Henson |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | What exactly are you supporting?
If you are OK with HQ clearly not abiding by the Minutes - what exactly is it that you support?
State Offices have leaders because the minutes direct them to have leaders - so I guess that is a part of the minutes that you wholeheartedly support.
I just can't understand why you don't want to support all of it.
What other items do you feel the COG need not abide by? |
First, "clearly not abiding" may be an overstatement. I find that the documents published in the Minutes are what the HQ considers as compliance. Further, I don't interpret the minutes as saying that there must be a line-item report. It's really a matter of perception on this one. I can't be the only one that does not have a problem with our current level of disclosure. Actually, we go above an beyond with the ECFA in my book. Could they be forthright about some indiscretions in the past? Probably. I still don't think we need a line-item account. Bishop Stephens didn't give us a line-item statement, and yet it was more than enough in my book.
Second, we have great men of God in the Florida State Offices. I love David Nitz and J David Stephens. I would bleed for those guys, because I have that kind of confidence in them. They are more than Minutes-appointed positions, they are God-appointed men. I respect that. The work that Bishop Nitz has done with Lifebuilders is remarkable. The work that Bishop Stephens has done to bring unity to Florida is remarkable.
I'm still waiting for what you guys want fully disclosed. Do you realize how much information you'd get if you got a copy of every expenditure and receipt in the Church of God?
Why is that necessary? To me, it's not that the EC is trying to be deceitful, but they're being practical. It's really not necessary. If anything needs to be published it would be summary of accounts. More than that is unnecessary in my book.
You just can't believe that I honestly don't see where the COG HQ is not complying. I'm not saying it couldn't be better, but I don't think they're not in compliance with the minutes.
Further, have ever considered why men of God from various positions in the COG, including pastoring, get elected to the EC and still don't bring "full disclosure" to the level you're looking for? Could it be that the view looks a little different from the captain's chair? Just saying. It's easy to criticize when we're only looking up one side of the mountain.
_________________
Joshua Henson
Senior Pastor at Pensacola Worship Center
www.pwccog.com
www.ecclesialleadership.com |
Friendly Face
Posts: 379
8/13/11 7:30 pm
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Kyle Morrow |
| A little off topic, but I find that the ones who are the most vocal about this issue don't report. Look at the state statistics and they will be listed as N/R. I know integrity starts at the top, and I have personally seen great integrity with our leadership on the state and international level in the COG. What I have not seen, however, is integrity with our local pastors to honor their covenant with their tithe of tithe. We do not have a money problem, we have an integrity problem. Before looking for sawdust, take the plank out of your own eye. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/13/11 7:53 pm
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Ben Gates |
| Joshua Henson wrote: | | Nature Boy Florida wrote: | What exactly are you supporting?
If you are OK with HQ clearly not abiding by the Minutes - what exactly is it that you support?
State Offices have leaders because the minutes direct them to have leaders - so I guess that is a part of the minutes that you wholeheartedly support.
I just can't understand why you don't want to support all of it.
What other items do you feel the COG need not abide by? |
First, "clearly not abiding" may be an overstatement. I find that the documents published in the Minutes are what the HQ considers as compliance. Further, I don't interpret the minutes as saying that there must be a line-item report. It's really a matter of perception on this one. I can't be the only one that does not have a problem with our current level of disclosure. Actually, we go above an beyond with the ECFA in my book. Could they be forthright about some indiscretions in the past? Probably. I still don't think we need a line-item account. Bishop Stephens didn't give us a line-item statement, and yet it was more than enough in my book.
Second, we have great men of God in the Florida State Offices. I love David Nitz and J David Stephens. I would bleed for those guys, because I have that kind of confidence in them. They are more than Minutes-appointed positions, they are God-appointed men. I respect that. The work that Bishop Nitz has done with Lifebuilders is remarkable. The work that Bishop Stephens has done to bring unity to Florida is remarkable.
I'm still waiting for what you guys want fully disclosed. Do you realize how much information you'd get if you got a copy of every expenditure and receipt in the Church of God?
Why is that necessary? To me, it's not that the EC is trying to be deceitful, but they're being practical. It's really not necessary. If anything needs to be published it would be summary of accounts. More than that is unnecessary in my book.
You just can't believe that I honestly don't see where the COG HQ is not complying. I'm not saying it couldn't be better, but I don't think they're not in compliance with the minutes.
Further, have ever considered why men of God from various positions in the COG, including pastoring, get elected to the EC and still don't bring "full disclosure" to the level you're looking for? Could it be that the view looks a little different from the captain's chair? Just saying. It's easy to criticize when we're only looking up one side of the mountain. |
If they would give out the line item reports to every member of the COG, some of this same people would be complaining because HQ spend so much on paper. A line item report for HQ would be volumes and volumes of paper. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 192
8/13/11 8:02 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Joshua Henson wrote: | | ...I have a feeling that the COG would fail our leadership as well. It's a spiritual problem. It's an integrity problem. |
It would appear that the intent of the measure requiring financial disclosure was to increase transparency and integrity. I would imagine the GA considered the possible publication of the information when they adopted language that did NOT restrict the use of the information.
I don't see the "spiritual problem" or the "integrity problem" with wanting to know where the money is going. I do see the spiritual problem and the integrity problem with hiding where the money is going...don't you?
The problems with disclosing:
Someone will be critical of spending;
Someone's mistake will be revealed;
Someone's dishonesty will be revealed;
Someone's greed will be revealed;
The benefits of disclosing:
The GA can discuss our finances intelligently;
Leadership will be more responsible with money;
Leadership will be more accountable;
The problems with NOT disclosing:
You violate your own rule requiring disclosure;
You leave the GA wondering what you are hiding;
You end up excusing noncompliance by accusing Ordained Bishops of "spiritual" and "integrity" problems.
The benefits of NOT disclosing:
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
8/14/11 8:13 am
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Kyle Morrow |
Tom,
I responded to your email. I want the board to know that I was not singling Tom out. He is not the only one! The only reason I would state such is to make the point that we need to clean up our house first! |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/14/11 1:54 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| Kyle Morrow wrote: | | A little off topic, but I find that the ones who are the most vocal about this issue don't report. Look at the state statistics and they will be listed as N/R. I know integrity starts at the top, and I have personally seen great integrity with our leadership on the state and international level in the COG. What I have not seen, however, is integrity with our local pastors to honor their covenant with their tithe of tithe. We do not have a money problem, we have an integrity problem. Before looking for sawdust, take the plank out of your own eye. |
| Quote: | Tom,
I responded to your email. I want the board to know that I was not singling Tom out. He is not the only one! The only reason I would state such is to make the point that we need to clean up our house first! |
Kyle, I think you owe Tom an apology...if integrity is something that you are concerned with. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
8/14/11 3:25 pm
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| Re: A response of accountability... |
Kyle Morrow |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: |
It's ideal for me to be able to pay every commitment I have (including the Church of God) on time and in full. For instance, it would be of no benefit to the Church of God for me to allow the deterioration of the church to the point that, while I may make payments to them (which currently average somewhere around $6000 per month total – state and general) I then should allow a $20,000 per month mortgage payment fall on their lap. They certainly don’t need that grief. In fact all our financial obligations are current and we are in good standing with those "outside the church."
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You do not owe anyone on here an explanation. I was not singling you out. There are others! I believe this board, along with myself, and the leadership of the COG will give you the benefit of the doubt. While it is ideal to make the payment on time, it is not best at this time (your words).
Even though you are in covenant with the COG, and I do believe you take the covenant seriously, you cannot fulfill your covenant responsibility. I understand that and sympathize with that, even though the General Assembly Minutes state you must send in 14% of your tithes by the 5th of each month. I do, however, think it would be nice if you would give the Executive Committee the same courtesy. It would be ideal for you to see the books without having to sign a non-disclosure agreement, but is it best?
The biggest money problem we have in the COG today is delinquent and non-reporting churches. The state and general headquarters have been lenient with you and many others in the matter of delinquent reporting, and you still have the audacity to come on a public forum and bring this issue up. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/14/11 3:32 pm
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Kyle Morrow |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | Kyle Morrow wrote: | | A little off topic, but I find that the ones who are the most vocal about this issue don't report. Look at the state statistics and they will be listed as N/R. I know integrity starts at the top, and I have personally seen great integrity with our leadership on the state and international level in the COG. What I have not seen, however, is integrity with our local pastors to honor their covenant with their tithe of tithe. We do not have a money problem, we have an integrity problem. Before looking for sawdust, take the plank out of your own eye. |
| Quote: | Tom,
I responded to your email. I want the board to know that I was not singling Tom out. He is not the only one! The only reason I would state such is to make the point that we need to clean up our house first! |
Kyle, I think you owe Tom an apology...if integrity is something that you are concerned with. |
I was not specifically referring to Tom. I like Tom and believe he has integrity. Noone asked him to post his history on here. I was stating and observation. None of us, myself included, have it all together. And if we would spend our time pastoring our churches instead of trying to clean up Cleveland, then we would possibly have better results. Just my opinion.
Tom, I am sorry if what I posted was out of line, again, I was not referring to you specificallly. I did not mention your name, your church, or even your state. You owe noone any explanation. The economy has impacted all of our churches, and I am confident you guys will bounce back. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/14/11 3:43 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Quote: | | I want the board to know that I was not singling Tom out. He is not the only one! |
Kyle, is this just a mis-post on your part? By saying he is not the "only one" you seem to be saying he IS one. Did you mean to say that? I just wanted to give you a chance to correct that. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
8/14/11 3:50 pm
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Kyle Morrow |
Tom admitted himself that he was one, he didn't need me to do it.
| Tom Sterbens wrote: |
Kyle - since it would be fair to identify me as "one of the most vocal," on this thread, and that I am not using a pen name (so anyone would be able to determine the name of the church I pastor), and further that our church is behind on the Tithe of Tithe payments,.... I think it would be fair to conclude that I am at least one of the people you are addressing - if not the only one. (Sorry for the really long sentence - smile). |
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Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/14/11 4:03 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| OK...just wanted to make sure that was addressed because you said you were not "specifically" referring to Tom. Cool. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
8/14/11 4:08 pm
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Little Caesar |
I say within 10 years Kyle Morrow will be on the Executive Committee and will revoke Tom's credentials for continuing to ask these same questions every year.
Before revoking, Overseer Morrow will give to Pastor Tom a detailed financial report - written color coded, using all 64 crayons in the box left over from the GDM administration. I mean we all know those 64 crayons cost $10 million dollars (tongue in cheek.)
After doing this, Pastor Tom will have his credentials revoked in public during one of the General Assembly sessions and he will be made to wear the Scarlett Letters for the next two years. The Scarlett Letters being A/G.
Overseer Morrow will banish anyone rumored of social drinking and will instruct all delegates that at the 2024 General Assembly in Las Vegas, NV, that they are to register with the new "Temporary Tattoo" on their hands so that no one will loose their registration information.
- Just joking with you fellows. I know you don't hate each other, and you both love the Church of God. One of you more than the other (wink wink) |
New Member
Posts: 20
8/14/11 4:10 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| One would think anyone with an IQ above 60 could see the clear difference between a local pastor honestly doing his best to keep his local church's commitments paid and at times failing in that endeavor (though he would pay if he could) and a denomination which hasn't even tried to comply with General Assembly-mandated responsibility to simply release information that could easily be released if they were willing. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12809
8/14/11 4:11 pm
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Phillip Johnson |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | OK...just wanted to make sure that was addressed because you said you were not "specifically" referring to Tom. Cool. |
Morrow was specifically referring to Tom in general. He was not singling him out. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4989
8/14/11 4:24 pm
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Travis Johnson |
These kinds of baseless character attacks took place in 2008. It was devastating to our fellowship...terrible damage. Friends were separated...maybe for good. Our fellowship was harmed. This shouldn't happen.
Deal in ideas. People who communicate those ideas ought to be credible. Tom is. Everyone knows he is. His ideas are sharp and vetted as well.
When our ideas are challenged, we ought not resort to name calling, whisper campaigns, or the like. We are brothers and sisters...not libelous slanderers functioning in some kind of worldly political game. This is the body of Christ.
Kyle, you made a mistake. So did SouthGeorgiaBoy. You both ought to repair it. You both are highly treasured brothers interacting with highly treasured brothers. Let's commit to one another not to engage in these kinds of tactics. We don't need a vicious repeat of an era we are doing well at rising above. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
8/14/11 4:53 pm
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