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Assemblies of God Position on Total Abstinence
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Post John Jett
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9/3/09 10:52 am


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Post Josh Trammell
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The Son of God would not drink a beverage that could alter His emotions or His behavior.


the same can be said of drinks loaded with sugar...sodas,sweet tea,COFFEE,etc....all of which give you a sugar or caffene high which alters your behavior and emotions.....you can't pick and chose ....

I abstain from alcholol..and teach people to do so..but some of the things that people use to say that it is wrong are funny...sorry no offense
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9/3/09 11:44 am


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Post Dean Steenburgh
LC said:
Quote:
Further we have allowed ourselves (the church in general), as Dean has, to place our church rules as determing factor for a relationship with God. And, the church has said, "You don't follow my church rules so God doesn't love you...and I don't either."


You have a sick mind! For someone who claims to be so un-debatable you have no idea what you speak about! You will never be the judge of who God loves and you will never speak for me & what I believe.

For those of you out there who have the ability to understand the English language (American version) & can comprehend intense subjects, I offer you this. When I decided to apply for my credentials back in the late 70's, I read the CoG beliefs & I applied for my creds knowing that alcohol abstinence was a critical point of my future tenure. From that day forth I would not drink any booze even if some on here want to skirt the subject as close as they can to justify their longings.

I have already stated that I don't believe I have ever said that the bible says drinking booze was a sin. But drinking enough of it will lead to sinful decisions. So here it is for the world to see, the CoG does not speak for my relationship with God. But the document that I gave my word towards for my credentials has a condition that limits my behavior. I am not suppose to drink any booze, smoke tobacco, have more than 1 wife, steal, cheat ...etc. My decision is exactly that ...mine. I will abide by the PC's of the CoG because I gave my word to uphold the beliefs, not challenge them due to my lust's as some will contend! If I break these PC's would it not be tantamount to a sinful decision, therefore sin?? If not, which one's can we break w/out condition, remorse or backlash?
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9/3/09 2:52 pm


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Post David Branson
Randy Johnson wrote:
I think motivation plays a part in this argument.

The main reason I have never drank alcohol is that there is really no good reason to drink it. The only reason I can think of for drinking alcohol is that it does alter your mind, and that is why the Scripture warns against being drunk on it.

Our aim should be to be controlled by the Holy Spirit at all times, not controlled by a chemical that affects us physically and mentally. I have argued on this thread and others like it that Scripture does not teach total abstinence from alcohol. That is because it simply doesn't. Period. Scripture teaches instead that we are to be self-controlled in our consumption of alcohol. People who cannot exercise self-control in alcohol should not drink at all ever!

The question I think should be asked by Christians who do drink alcohol, even in moderation, is "What is your motivation for drinking alcohol?" As Paul quoted, "'All things are lawful for me', but not all things are beneficial. 'All things are lawful for me', but not everything is constructive. 'All things are lawful for me', but I will not be mastered by anything."

Everything we do in word and deed is to be done in the name of Lord Jesus, and we are to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. So the real question when it comes to even moderate alcohol consumption is the motivation of our hearts.

I had an uncle who made his living working for a liquor distributor. He wasn't just a beer truck delivery person, he ran in the high class social circles in my hometown. He played golf everyday with the important people in town and served liquor at their parties at night. For him, alcohol was a social status symbol, he sneered at people who got drunk, especially the rest of my mother's siblings who were poor and could only afford a couple cases of beer on the weekends.

I wonder, to some degree, if this is the motivation behind moderate alcohol consumption for some Christians? They never intend to get drunk and possibly never will, but it just comes down to a "pride of life" issue (the boasting about what a man has and does). Even without drunkenness, this motivation does not come from the Father, but from the world.


Thank you, Randy....for a balanced, well thought out point.
No over reaching reaction here.

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9/3/09 4:18 pm


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Post Re: Hold on LC c6thplayer1
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Omega wrote:
LC, what do you think about John 20:23? Isn't that Christ giving the Disciples authority of some issues to call them sin?


Are you serious? Christ gave man authority to decide what will separate man from God?

No. Jesus didn't give man authority to decide what is sin and what isn't.



Omega wrote:
One last thing and I'll not beat this horse again at least for a while. The PC's were in place when you decided to become a COG pastor. It's not like they come up with the PC's after you were already in. My question is why would you puposely align yourself with a denomination that you disagree with so much? It's not about one issue but it's about you accusing the COG of taking authority over the Bible and what Christ teaches. I would not spend one minute in the COG if I felt they did that. I just don't get where you're coming from. Very Happy Very Happy


I don't disagree with the COG on the issue. The Church of God doesn't teach, in any of its official documents, that moderate consumption of alcohol is sin.

I don't even disagree with the Practical Commitments. They are just that- a practical guide to practical Christian living. The Church of God Practical Commitments tell us to abstain from alcohol, NOT because it's sinful to drink moderately, but because it has the potential to become bondage. I think that's fairly practical. It isn't a sin to have a glass of wine or a beer, but it's generally wise for most people to abstain, especially those who have a history of alcohol abuse or those whose personalities can lead to overindulgence. I don't drink. I have no problem with the PC's nor do I have a problem with the Church of God.

My problem lies with those whose theology and doctrine are formed by church rules instead of Scripture- like Dean. His perception of his church rules is that the church rules have always taught us that drinking is somehow immoral and sinful, and thus he can't accept the fact that Jesus consumed alcohol, even though Jesus, Himself, stated that He did, and that the culture and practices of His time dictated that He did (see the fermentation of Passover wine, for example). Because his theology is informed by church rules and not by Scripture, he omits and ignores the several passages where God, Himself, instructed people to buy and consume strong alcoholic beverages and where others in the Bible are instructed to consume alcohol. That doesn't line up with what he's been taught all his life, so he can't come to terms with it, so he claims it isn't true; it can't be, in his mind, because the church rules say we're to abstain, or because the church culture we created has said it is sin for the past 200 years.

I have no problem with church rules or practical commitments. However, I don't think church rules should form or shape our theology and doctrine. I think correct theology and doctrine should form and shape our church rules. And on this issue, it appears that is precisely what the Church of God has done. For example, it is absolutely, undeniably clear that the moderate consumption of alcohol is not sin, according to Scripture. Nonetheless, Scripture gives many warnings about the potential dangers of abusing it or drinking it in excess. Thus, we take away from that that it is not sin for anyone to drink, but it may not be exactly wise in all cases. That's Scripturally correct. So, since the COG does not condemn moderate drinking as sin, and tell us we should abstain because of the potential effects of alcohol, that lines up very well, and is a position that is based on sound doctrine. In this case, sound doctrine has shaped the church rule, and not the other way around.

Aside from that, I'm COG- always have been, probably always will be. There are things in the denomination every member or minister disagrees with- whether it be doctrine, rules, or policy. I don't think disagreement of a minor issue is cause to look for another denomination (even though, again, I don't disagree with the COG, here).


I grew up in church and was always taught, like most everybody who grew up in church, that drinking was a sin- no matter if it was one beer or 20. I didn't know any better, and never took the time to study it out myself. Most young people and teenagers won't do that. I just trusted that what was said was true.

I was taught, pretty much, that if you're in the grocery store and you see someone buying a beer or a bottle of wine or a pack of cigarettes, you needed to witness to that person and get them saved, because they were going to hell.

That's a bunch of junk, and it comes from ignorance and naivity (people not studying the issue for themselves, and trusting whatever misguided Pastor Joe Bob spouts off from the pulpit), and also from allowing church rules to form and shape doctrine and theology instead of allowing Scripture to stand on its own and shape and form our church rules. Further we have allowed ourselves (the church in general), as Dean has, to place our church rules as determing factor for a relationship with God. And, the church has said, "You don't follow my church rules so God doesn't love you...and I don't either."

John Doe who is buying a bottle of wine in Wal-Mart today is no less saved than I am for all I know. Neither is his wife, Jane, who stopped at the Quick-Mart to buy a pack of cigarettes. Those things aren't determining factors for a relationship with God, as many in the church world would decive us into believing.

That's the issue I have- placing legalistic, man-made standards on peoples' relationship with God, and judging their salvation by that.

Hope that cleared it up.




One Comment... Wow .. I have to say that I agree with LC on this one ..



Quote:
I don't even disagree with the Practical Commitments. They are just that- a practical guide to practical Christian living. The Church of God Practical Commitments tell us to abstain from alcohol, NOT because it's sinful to drink moderately, but because it has the potential to become bondage.



And this is about the best explaination that I've heard.. LC your stock just went a a couple of points...
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9/3/09 4:56 pm


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Post Re: Hold on LC Omega
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Omega wrote:
LC, what do you think about John 20:23? Isn't that Christ giving the Disciples authority of some issues to call them sin?


Are you serious? Christ gave man authority to decide what will separate man from God?

No. Jesus didn't give man authority to decide what is sin and what isn't.



Omega wrote:
One last thing and I'll not beat this horse again at least for a while. The PC's were in place when you decided to become a COG pastor. It's not like they come up with the PC's after you were already in. My question is why would you puposely align yourself with a denomination that you disagree with so much? It's not about one issue but it's about you accusing the COG of taking authority over the Bible and what Christ teaches. I would not spend one minute in the COG if I felt they did that. I just don't get where you're coming from. Very Happy Very Happy


I don't disagree with the COG on the issue. The Church of God doesn't teach, in any of its official documents, that moderate consumption of alcohol is sin.

I don't even disagree with the Practical Commitments. They are just that- a practical guide to practical Christian living. The Church of God Practical Commitments tell us to abstain from alcohol, NOT because it's sinful to drink moderately, but because it has the potential to become bondage. I think that's fairly practical. It isn't a sin to have a glass of wine or a beer, but it's generally wise for most people to abstain, especially those who have a history of alcohol abuse or those whose personalities can lead to overindulgence. I don't drink. I have no problem with the PC's nor do I have a problem with the Church of God.

My problem lies with those whose theology and doctrine are formed by church rules instead of Scripture- like Dean. His perception of his church rules is that the church rules have always taught us that drinking is somehow immoral and sinful, and thus he can't accept the fact that Jesus consumed alcohol, even though Jesus, Himself, stated that He did, and that the culture and practices of His time dictated that He did (see the fermentation of Passover wine, for example). Because his theology is informed by church rules and not by Scripture, he omits and ignores the several passages where God, Himself, instructed people to buy and consume strong alcoholic beverages and where others in the Bible are instructed to consume alcohol. That doesn't line up with what he's been taught all his life, so he can't come to terms with it, so he claims it isn't true; it can't be, in his mind, because the church rules say we're to abstain, or because the church culture we created has said it is sin for the past 200 years.

I have no problem with church rules or practical commitments. However, I don't think church rules should form or shape our theology and doctrine. I think correct theology and doctrine should form and shape our church rules. And on this issue, it appears that is precisely what the Church of God has done. For example, it is absolutely, undeniably clear that the moderate consumption of alcohol is not sin, according to Scripture. Nonetheless, Scripture gives many warnings about the potential dangers of abusing it or drinking it in excess. Thus, we take away from that that it is not sin for anyone to drink, but it may not be exactly wise in all cases. That's Scripturally correct. So, since the COG does not condemn moderate drinking as sin, and tell us we should abstain because of the potential effects of alcohol, that lines up very well, and is a position that is based on sound doctrine. In this case, sound doctrine has shaped the church rule, and not the other way around.

Aside from that, I'm COG- always have been, probably always will be. There are things in the denomination every member or minister disagrees with- whether it be doctrine, rules, or policy. I don't think disagreement of a minor issue is cause to look for another denomination (even though, again, I don't disagree with the COG, here).


I grew up in church and was always taught, like most everybody who grew up in church, that drinking was a sin- no matter if it was one beer or 20. I didn't know any better, and never took the time to study it out myself. Most young people and teenagers won't do that. I just trusted that what was said was true.

I was taught, pretty much, that if you're in the grocery store and you see someone buying a beer or a bottle of wine or a pack of cigarettes, you needed to witness to that person and get them saved, because they were going to hell.

That's a bunch of junk, and it comes from ignorance and naivity (people not studying the issue for themselves, and trusting whatever misguided Pastor Joe Bob spouts off from the pulpit), and also from allowing church rules to form and shape doctrine and theology instead of allowing Scripture to stand on its own and shape and form our church rules. Further we have allowed ourselves (the church in general), as Dean has, to place our church rules as determing factor for a relationship with God. And, the church has said, "You don't follow my church rules so God doesn't love you...and I don't either."

John Doe who is buying a bottle of wine in Wal-Mart today is no less saved than I am for all I know. Neither is his wife, Jane, who stopped at the Quick-Mart to buy a pack of cigarettes. Those things aren't determining factors for a relationship with God, as many in the church world would decive us into believing.

That's the issue I have- placing legalistic, man-made standards on peoples' relationship with God, and judging their salvation by that.

Hope that cleared it up.



Then explain John 20 and Matthew 18. Of course I know you will.
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9/3/09 6:44 pm


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Post Re: Hold on LC Omega
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Omega wrote:
LC, what do you think about John 20:23? Isn't that Christ giving the Disciples authority of some issues to call them sin?


Are you serious? Christ gave man authority to decide what will separate man from God?

No. Jesus didn't give man authority to decide what is sin and what isn't.



Omega wrote:
One last thing and I'll not beat this horse again at least for a while. The PC's were in place when you decided to become a COG pastor. It's not like they come up with the PC's after you were already in. My question is why would you puposely align yourself with a denomination that you disagree with so much? It's not about one issue but it's about you accusing the COG of taking authority over the Bible and what Christ teaches. I would not spend one minute in the COG if I felt they did that. I just don't get where you're coming from. Very Happy Very Happy


I don't disagree with the COG on the issue. The Church of God doesn't teach, in any of its official documents, that moderate consumption of alcohol is sin.

I don't even disagree with the Practical Commitments. They are just that- a practical guide to practical Christian living. The Church of God Practical Commitments tell us to abstain from alcohol, NOT because it's sinful to drink moderately, but because it has the potential to become bondage. I think that's fairly practical. It isn't a sin to have a glass of wine or a beer, but it's generally wise for most people to abstain, especially those who have a history of alcohol abuse or those whose personalities can lead to overindulgence. I don't drink. I have no problem with the PC's nor do I have a problem with the Church of God.

My problem lies with those whose theology and doctrine are formed by church rules instead of Scripture- like Dean. His perception of his church rules is that the church rules have always taught us that drinking is somehow immoral and sinful, and thus he can't accept the fact that Jesus consumed alcohol, even though Jesus, Himself, stated that He did, and that the culture and practices of His time dictated that He did (see the fermentation of Passover wine, for example). Because his theology is informed by church rules and not by Scripture, he omits and ignores the several passages where God, Himself, instructed people to buy and consume strong alcoholic beverages and where others in the Bible are instructed to consume alcohol. That doesn't line up with what he's been taught all his life, so he can't come to terms with it, so he claims it isn't true; it can't be, in his mind, because the church rules say we're to abstain, or because the church culture we created has said it is sin for the past 200 years.

I have no problem with church rules or practical commitments. However, I don't think church rules should form or shape our theology and doctrine. I think correct theology and doctrine should form and shape our church rules. And on this issue, it appears that is precisely what the Church of God has done. For example, it is absolutely, undeniably clear that the moderate consumption of alcohol is not sin, according to Scripture. Nonetheless, Scripture gives many warnings about the potential dangers of abusing it or drinking it in excess. Thus, we take away from that that it is not sin for anyone to drink, but it may not be exactly wise in all cases. That's Scripturally correct. So, since the COG does not condemn moderate drinking as sin, and tell us we should abstain because of the potential effects of alcohol, that lines up very well, and is a position that is based on sound doctrine. In this case, sound doctrine has shaped the church rule, and not the other way around.

Aside from that, I'm COG- always have been, probably always will be. There are things in the denomination every member or minister disagrees with- whether it be doctrine, rules, or policy. I don't think disagreement of a minor issue is cause to look for another denomination (even though, again, I don't disagree with the COG, here).


I grew up in church and was always taught, like most everybody who grew up in church, that drinking was a sin- no matter if it was one beer or 20. I didn't know any better, and never took the time to study it out myself. Most young people and teenagers won't do that. I just trusted that what was said was true.

I was taught, pretty much, that if you're in the grocery store and you see someone buying a beer or a bottle of wine or a pack of cigarettes, you needed to witness to that person and get them saved, because they were going to hell.

That's a bunch of junk, and it comes from ignorance and naivity (people not studying the issue for themselves, and trusting whatever misguided Pastor Joe Bob spouts off from the pulpit), and also from allowing church rules to form and shape doctrine and theology instead of allowing Scripture to stand on its own and shape and form our church rules. Further we have allowed ourselves (the church in general), as Dean has, to place our church rules as determing factor for a relationship with God. And, the church has said, "You don't follow my church rules so God doesn't love you...and I don't either."

John Doe who is buying a bottle of wine in Wal-Mart today is no less saved than I am for all I know. Neither is his wife, Jane, who stopped at the Quick-Mart to buy a pack of cigarettes. Those things aren't determining factors for a relationship with God, as many in the church world would decive us into believing.

That's the issue I have- placing legalistic, man-made standards on peoples' relationship with God, and judging their salvation by that.

Hope that cleared it up.


Maybe we should change the topic to anger. You are one angry dude. You should take a chill or you're gonna pop a vein.....Seriously Brother. Cool Cool
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9/3/09 6:52 pm


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Post My two cents... SHINTEX
It seems to me that LC has went above and beyond in trying to explain his position on the subject of alcohol. His last post was well thought out and very clear. I also happen to agree with LC on this subject.
Its seems clear that DS and Omega simply cannot accept the fact that everyone won't agree with their opinion and they keep trying to pick little snippets of LC's comment to agrue about.
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9/3/09 8:02 pm


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Post Re: Hold on LC c6thplayer1
Omega wrote:
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Omega wrote:
LC, what do you think about John 20:23? Isn't that Christ giving the Disciples authority of some issues to call them sin?


Are you serious? Christ gave man authority to decide what will separate man from God?

No. Jesus didn't give man authority to decide what is sin and what isn't.



Omega wrote:
One last thing and I'll not beat this horse again at least for a while. The PC's were in place when you decided to become a COG pastor. It's not like they come up with the PC's after you were already in. My question is why would you puposely align yourself with a denomination that you disagree with so much? It's not about one issue but it's about you accusing the COG of taking authority over the Bible and what Christ teaches. I would not spend one minute in the COG if I felt they did that. I just don't get where you're coming from. Very Happy Very Happy


I don't disagree with the COG on the issue. The Church of God doesn't teach, in any of its official documents, that moderate consumption of alcohol is sin.

I don't even disagree with the Practical Commitments. They are just that- a practical guide to practical Christian living. The Church of God Practical Commitments tell us to abstain from alcohol, NOT because it's sinful to drink moderately, but because it has the potential to become bondage. I think that's fairly practical. It isn't a sin to have a glass of wine or a beer, but it's generally wise for most people to abstain, especially those who have a history of alcohol abuse or those whose personalities can lead to overindulgence. I don't drink. I have no problem with the PC's nor do I have a problem with the Church of God.

My problem lies with those whose theology and doctrine are formed by church rules instead of Scripture- like Dean. His perception of his church rules is that the church rules have always taught us that drinking is somehow immoral and sinful, and thus he can't accept the fact that Jesus consumed alcohol, even though Jesus, Himself, stated that He did, and that the culture and practices of His time dictated that He did (see the fermentation of Passover wine, for example). Because his theology is informed by church rules and not by Scripture, he omits and ignores the several passages where God, Himself, instructed people to buy and consume strong alcoholic beverages and where others in the Bible are instructed to consume alcohol. That doesn't line up with what he's been taught all his life, so he can't come to terms with it, so he claims it isn't true; it can't be, in his mind, because the church rules say we're to abstain, or because the church culture we created has said it is sin for the past 200 years.

I have no problem with church rules or practical commitments. However, I don't think church rules should form or shape our theology and doctrine. I think correct theology and doctrine should form and shape our church rules. And on this issue, it appears that is precisely what the Church of God has done. For example, it is absolutely, undeniably clear that the moderate consumption of alcohol is not sin, according to Scripture. Nonetheless, Scripture gives many warnings about the potential dangers of abusing it or drinking it in excess. Thus, we take away from that that it is not sin for anyone to drink, but it may not be exactly wise in all cases. That's Scripturally correct. So, since the COG does not condemn moderate drinking as sin, and tell us we should abstain because of the potential effects of alcohol, that lines up very well, and is a position that is based on sound doctrine. In this case, sound doctrine has shaped the church rule, and not the other way around.

Aside from that, I'm COG- always have been, probably always will be. There are things in the denomination every member or minister disagrees with- whether it be doctrine, rules, or policy. I don't think disagreement of a minor issue is cause to look for another denomination (even though, again, I don't disagree with the COG, here).


I grew up in church and was always taught, like most everybody who grew up in church, that drinking was a sin- no matter if it was one beer or 20. I didn't know any better, and never took the time to study it out myself. Most young people and teenagers won't do that. I just trusted that what was said was true.

I was taught, pretty much, that if you're in the grocery store and you see someone buying a beer or a bottle of wine or a pack of cigarettes, you needed to witness to that person and get them saved, because they were going to hell.

That's a bunch of junk, and it comes from ignorance and naivity (people not studying the issue for themselves, and trusting whatever misguided Pastor Joe Bob spouts off from the pulpit), and also from allowing church rules to form and shape doctrine and theology instead of allowing Scripture to stand on its own and shape and form our church rules. Further we have allowed ourselves (the church in general), as Dean has, to place our church rules as determing factor for a relationship with God. And, the church has said, "You don't follow my church rules so God doesn't love you...and I don't either."

John Doe who is buying a bottle of wine in Wal-Mart today is no less saved than I am for all I know. Neither is his wife, Jane, who stopped at the Quick-Mart to buy a pack of cigarettes. Those things aren't determining factors for a relationship with God, as many in the church world would decive us into believing.

That's the issue I have- placing legalistic, man-made standards on peoples' relationship with God, and judging their salvation by that.

Hope that cleared it up.



Then explain John 20 and Matthew 18. Of course I know you will.




John 20 and Matthew 18??? where at or what verse ?
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9/3/09 8:23 pm


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Post Re: Hold on LC Omega
c6thplayer1 wrote:
Omega wrote:
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Omega wrote:
LC, what do you think about John 20:23? Isn't that Christ giving the Disciples authority of some issues to call them sin?


Are you serious? Christ gave man authority to decide what will separate man from God?

No. Jesus didn't give man authority to decide what is sin and what isn't.



Omega wrote:
One last thing and I'll not beat this horse again at least for a while. The PC's were in place when you decided to become a COG pastor. It's not like they come up with the PC's after you were already in. My question is why would you puposely align yourself with a denomination that you disagree with so much? It's not about one issue but it's about you accusing the COG of taking authority over the Bible and what Christ teaches. I would not spend one minute in the COG if I felt they did that. I just don't get where you're coming from. Very Happy Very Happy


I don't disagree with the COG on the issue. The Church of God doesn't teach, in any of its official documents, that moderate consumption of alcohol is sin.

I don't even disagree with the Practical Commitments. They are just that- a practical guide to practical Christian living. The Church of God Practical Commitments tell us to abstain from alcohol, NOT because it's sinful to drink moderately, but because it has the potential to become bondage. I think that's fairly practical. It isn't a sin to have a glass of wine or a beer, but it's generally wise for most people to abstain, especially those who have a history of alcohol abuse or those whose personalities can lead to overindulgence. I don't drink. I have no problem with the PC's nor do I have a problem with the Church of God.

My problem lies with those whose theology and doctrine are formed by church rules instead of Scripture- like Dean. His perception of his church rules is that the church rules have always taught us that drinking is somehow immoral and sinful, and thus he can't accept the fact that Jesus consumed alcohol, even though Jesus, Himself, stated that He did, and that the culture and practices of His time dictated that He did (see the fermentation of Passover wine, for example). Because his theology is informed by church rules and not by Scripture, he omits and ignores the several passages where God, Himself, instructed people to buy and consume strong alcoholic beverages and where others in the Bible are instructed to consume alcohol. That doesn't line up with what he's been taught all his life, so he can't come to terms with it, so he claims it isn't true; it can't be, in his mind, because the church rules say we're to abstain, or because the church culture we created has said it is sin for the past 200 years.

I have no problem with church rules or practical commitments. However, I don't think church rules should form or shape our theology and doctrine. I think correct theology and doctrine should form and shape our church rules. And on this issue, it appears that is precisely what the Church of God has done. For example, it is absolutely, undeniably clear that the moderate consumption of alcohol is not sin, according to Scripture. Nonetheless, Scripture gives many warnings about the potential dangers of abusing it or drinking it in excess. Thus, we take away from that that it is not sin for anyone to drink, but it may not be exactly wise in all cases. That's Scripturally correct. So, since the COG does not condemn moderate drinking as sin, and tell us we should abstain because of the potential effects of alcohol, that lines up very well, and is a position that is based on sound doctrine. In this case, sound doctrine has shaped the church rule, and not the other way around.

Aside from that, I'm COG- always have been, probably always will be. There are things in the denomination every member or minister disagrees with- whether it be doctrine, rules, or policy. I don't think disagreement of a minor issue is cause to look for another denomination (even though, again, I don't disagree with the COG, here).


I grew up in church and was always taught, like most everybody who grew up in church, that drinking was a sin- no matter if it was one beer or 20. I didn't know any better, and never took the time to study it out myself. Most young people and teenagers won't do that. I just trusted that what was said was true.

I was taught, pretty much, that if you're in the grocery store and you see someone buying a beer or a bottle of wine or a pack of cigarettes, you needed to witness to that person and get them saved, because they were going to hell.

That's a bunch of junk, and it comes from ignorance and naivity (people not studying the issue for themselves, and trusting whatever misguided Pastor Joe Bob spouts off from the pulpit), and also from allowing church rules to form and shape doctrine and theology instead of allowing Scripture to stand on its own and shape and form our church rules. Further we have allowed ourselves (the church in general), as Dean has, to place our church rules as determing factor for a relationship with God. And, the church has said, "You don't follow my church rules so God doesn't love you...and I don't either."

John Doe who is buying a bottle of wine in Wal-Mart today is no less saved than I am for all I know. Neither is his wife, Jane, who stopped at the Quick-Mart to buy a pack of cigarettes. Those things aren't determining factors for a relationship with God, as many in the church world would decive us into believing.

That's the issue I have- placing legalistic, man-made standards on peoples' relationship with God, and judging their salvation by that.

Hope that cleared it up.



Then explain John 20 and Matthew 18. Of course I know you will.




John 20 and Matthew 18??? where at or what verse ?


Matthew 18:18: Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 20:22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
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9/3/09 9:10 pm


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Post Re: My two cents... Omega
SHINTEX wrote:
It seems to me that LC has went above and beyond in trying to explain his position on the subject of alcohol. His last post was well thought out and very clear. I also happen to agree with LC on this subject.
Its seems clear that DS and Omega simply cannot accept the fact that everyone won't agree with their opinion and they keep trying to pick little snippets of LC's comment to agrue about.


Nor does everyone agree with your opinion. If you'd take the time to search it out, you would find that LC does his share of blasting those who disagree with him. As far as our demnomination goes your opinion is in the minority. Laughing Laughing
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9/3/09 9:15 pm


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Post Re: My two cents... SHINTEX
Omega wrote:
SHINTEX wrote:
It seems to me that LC has went above and beyond in trying to explain his position on the subject of alcohol. His last post was well thought out and very clear. I also happen to agree with LC on this subject.
Its seems clear that DS and Omega simply cannot accept the fact that everyone won't agree with their opinion and they keep trying to pick little snippets of LC's comment to agrue about.


Nor does everyone agree with your opinion. If you'd take the time to search it out, you would find that LC does his share of blasting those who disagree with him. As far as our demnomination goes your opinion is in the minority. Laughing Laughing


Oh well, my main concern is being biblical not denominational. I love the COG but I love the Bible more.
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9/3/09 9:39 pm


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Post Re: My two cents... justakid
Omega wrote:
SHINTEX wrote:
It seems to me that LC has went above and beyond in trying to explain his position on the subject of alcohol. His last post was well thought out and very clear. I also happen to agree with LC on this subject.
Its seems clear that DS and Omega simply cannot accept the fact that everyone won't agree with their opinion and they keep trying to pick little snippets of LC's comment to agrue about.


Nor does everyone agree with your opinion. If you'd take the time to search it out, you would find that LC does his share of blasting those who disagree with him. As far as our demnomination goes your opinion is in the minority. Laughing Laughing
Uh, you'd be surprised about how may people actually dissagree.

And Omega, those verses are about forgiving sin and binding curses and blessings. Not about having the power to declare what is and isn't sin. No one has that power but I Am.
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9/6/09 12:06 am


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Post Troy Hamby
I've thought about this issue a lot because we will be planting a church soon which hopes to reach mostly unchurched, unsaved people and I know that I will have to address this soon and early on.

I come from a background where I was addicted to drugs and alcohol (and other things). So, I abstain from alcohol because I know what it can and will do to me if I allow it. I have an addictive personality, so it's best for me to abstain completely but that's me. I can't push my personality flaws on other people who may be able to have a glass of wine in moderation and not get slobbering drunk. So, for me, it comes down to what does the Bible say about it and what are your motivations for drinking?

Others have expounded on the Biblical basis far greater than I could, but of all the Biblical references to wine, I have a hard time believing it was grape juice. But really, to me, that's not the point. When I address this subject, it all comes down to "why" are you drinking wine? Are you doing it to catch a buzz? Are you trying to fit in with some social circle that thinks it's cool? Or, do you enjoy a nice chardonnay with your pasta? This should really be our guide to all of our actions in life because there are very few things that the Bible actually spells out as sin (and having a glass of wine definitely isn't one of those).

By the way, I definitely do agree that if you are a COG member and you agreed to abide by their doctrine and commitments, then you should do that. That is a matter of integrity...
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9/6/09 11:39 am


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Post Randy Johnson
Here is the issue I think:

If we simply give people a list of things that says, "Do this, Don't do that!", we do a disservice to people's spiritual growth and we short-circuit their direct connection with God through the Holy Spirit.

Christianity isn't about behavior modification. Christianity is about a vital, personal relationship between the God of Creation and one of His creatures.

In John 17, Jesus defined eternal life in terms of relationship - "that they may know you, the One True God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent". Nothing is more important than each individual believer developing this intimate knowledge of God and His Son. As ministers, our job is to assist our fellow believers in developing this relationship.

All of us have personal convictions - some gleaned from study of Scripture and experience in life - and some by personal conviction of the Holy Spirit apart from any list of rules, contracts, or denominational statements.

The most important thing is for each one of us is to learn to hear and recognize the voice of the Holy Spirit for ourselves. We need to give one another the spiritual freedom and liberty to do this, and we need to exercise faith that God desires and will speak to the hearts of those who sincerely are seeking Him and His will.

In the days of Paul, the question was over whether or not to eat meat that might possibly been offered in sacrifice in a pagan temple. Paul's answer in Romans 14 to that issue is the same answer that applies to the moderate consumption of alcohol.

1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

The bottom line is that we are all servants of the same Lord, and he has not given any one of us the authority to judge our brothers or sisters. The only authority He has given us is to be fully convinced in our own minds regarding any disputable issue, and to act in faith in accordance with our convictions.

What if, in the end, we reach the judgment seat of Christ and it is uncovered that our brother's conviction concerning a certain issue was wrong? Will he be judged and punished for his error? Possibly so. But even if he is, consider this, even though we may have had the "correct" conviction concerning the same issue but judged our brother and looked down on him, we will be judged for our attitude, words, and actions apart from the fact that we were correct in our convictions.
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9/6/09 10:59 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Randy Johnson wrote:
The bottom line is that we are all servants of the same Lord, and he has not given any one of us the authority to judge our brothers or sisters. The only authority He has given us is to be fully convinced in our own minds regarding any disputable issue, and to act in faith in accordance with our convictions.

This should be the absolute Biblical bottom-line on the issue. Somehow I don't expect it will be, though. Confused
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9/7/09 12:21 am


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Post Re: Assemblies of God Position on Total Abstinence bonnie knox
bradfreeman wrote:
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Classical Pentecostal wrote:
Alcoholic beverages should have no place in the life of the Christian.


I wonder why nobody told Jesus.


He's not AG, so it doesn't matter. Rolling Eyes
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Post Alcohol PastorPaul2
This is exactly why I left the denomination that my familys name goes way back in and that I was fifth generation COG and third generation COG Pastor of. Dean you know me very well since I was a child and you know that I agonized over my decision three years ago.

The reason I left when I did and I consulted long and hard with much prayer and trevailing and wise counsel even with my own father who you know very well compared to me. Paul martin Sr told me I had to do what was best and I did for my own conscience and I am so free now. With this subject I agree that alcohol can be dangerous if polluted but there is no biblical stand for this.

I have come to a point in my ministry and church that we keep the main thing the main thing and these gray areas we can agreee to disagree. This is why I am no longer with the church I grew up and loved. I was tired of seeing the fighting and bicKering and telling young ministers that we needed to shut up and just follow the system set up by God. This is absurd and I am glad I am free from all of this junk. I am still being succesful in ministry and I have not backslid and been rebellious as many of my brothers feel I have by leaving. I still have great realationships in my old denomination all the way to the top. I just had to do what was right for me and make the ministry about Christ and him crucified once again. No more polotics and I have regained my first love once again.
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