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The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link)
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Post Re: The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link) Land of Middle Girth
Personally, I think the subject is moot. What's going to happen will happen.
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4/5/06 12:09 am


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Post Re: The Whole World Has Heard Porpoise Driven Neptune
ImHisChild wrote:
John wrote,
Though certainly the Bible teaches that we must be ever-ready for his return, it just as certainly teaches that the gospel shall be preached into all nations (people groups) for a witness, and then shall the end come, so it cannot be true that Jesus could have returned any time before the present.


The requirement for the gospel to be preached into all nations was fulfilled according to the Apostle Paul before he died.

Colossians 1:6
6that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God’s grace in all its truth.

Colossians 1:23
23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Romans 1:8
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.

So I must conclude that Paul by the Holy Ghost believed that the whole world had heard the gospel and had a chance to receive its provision. Therefore, I am convinced that nothing stands between us and the rapture other than the condition of the church.

God Bless


Yeah, and the mustard seed is the smallest seed you can plant in the ground (Mark 4:31).

Hyperbole!
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4/5/06 2:19 am


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Post stp89's Pseudo-Ephraim link (link) coelestius
stp89 wrote:
TheoloJohn wrote:

Thank you for your input. It is a matter of historical fact that the pretrib rapture theory was absolutely unknown to Christianity until the 1830s.


Hi Theo- I'd like to submit This link for your viewing. It would seem that not everyone shares your conclusion regarding the origins of the pre-trib rapture "theory". Very Happy

I hope to share more later as time allows


Here is the link to an article that takes Ice's article apart, showing that it is just so much hokum, as a support for any Pre-Trib theory.

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/ephraem.html

TheoloJohn is correct; the Early Church knew nothing of a Pre-Trib rapture.[/url]
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4/5/06 7:07 am


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Post Re: Theolojohn & Imhis child TheoloJohn
Gradofcogts wrote:
Theolojohn:

I don't see how you feel the Scriptures used by imhischild has no reference or relevance to eschatology?


Hi grad,

I didn't say those scriptures have no reference or relevance to eschatology; what I did say was that those scriptures do not prove any one particular eschatology over another. The fact is that every eschatological view within the Christian faith teaches that we must be ready for Christ's return.

Quote:
My point being that all main stream arguments concerning the catching away were in fact late other than the Scriptures used by imhischild.

So how do you with one swipe dismiss them as not "required" for pre-trib with no explanation other than what you say? He did use the Scriptures and while they are part of the classical argument they are enough for many to stand with that doctrine.


Again, not a one of the scriptures that ImHisChild posted in any way require belief in the pretrib theory. Please show how they do, if you can.

Thanks,

TJ
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4/5/06 10:30 pm


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Post Re: Pritrib Is Not A New View TheoloJohn
ImHisChild wrote:
One could even perhaps believe that all the original twelve were convinced of His imminent return.


Yes, one could. The question is, would one be correct in concluding the pretrib theory is true based on the imminence concept?

Quote:
Matthew 24:1-3


"Watch that no one deceives you," in first person present tense, even if it proves what you say it does, at best only indicates that Jesus urgently taught that his disciples should be ever watchful. To use this as "proof" of the pretrib theory is to rely upon inference alone, rather than plain assertion of the Word of God.

Quote:
The Apostle Paul makes his position clear on the return of the Lord in 1 Corinthians and 1&2 Thessalonians.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.


All of the various eschatologies (even postmillenialism and amillenialism) affirm that Christ will return to earth some day, resurrect the dead in Christ, and catch away all living saints. The above verses do not teach anything at all with regard to the pretrib theory per se; they simply and only refer to the resurrection of the just and the rapture of the saints, without specific reference to the precise timing of the rapture per se in relation to the tribulation.

Quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:1
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
Notice that in each case he uses a present tense form of the pronoun – we. In 1 Thess the we that is used to proclaim faith that Jesus died and rose again and the we that believes that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep, is the we who are still alive and will be caught up together in the clouds. The only time he refers to “they” and “them” is when is speaking of those who have preceded the we in death. Once again had he been referring to a future generation why not say so. The answer is simple – the Holy Ghost is conveying the truth of the imminent return of the Lord.


Again, none of that proves the pretrib theory in the least. The "be ye therefore ready" concept fits in with every eschatological theory known to Christianity, be it pre trib, mid trib, post trib, pre-wrath, postmillenial, or amillenial.

Quote:
Peter as well believed the Lord was coming at any time:
2 Peter 3:10-13
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
Here the same message is sent to the Church – it is about you and we, not they and them.


Ummm...sorry, but could you show where any rapture is mentioned at all in that passage? I see a clear mention to the Lord's destruction and renovation by fire of the heavens and the earth, that in light of that fact we should all live holy lives and look forward to the new heavens and new earth, but the rapture itself isn't even mentioned in that passage.

Quote:
The rest of Jesus followers could have easily believed this as well:
Acts 1:11
11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Now I realize the angels never directly promised that they would see Him return, but certainly I can understand why they would believe that they would.

So I am convinced that the pretrib return is the oldest position of the Church, not the newest as many have claimed.


Again, Acts 1:11 fits with all of the various Christian eschatologies. Jesus will return again "in like manner" as He ascended (bodily, and in the clouds). This is affirmed by all of the various eschatological views.
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006


Last edited by TheoloJohn on 4/5/06 11:48 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post Re: The Whole World Has Heard TheoloJohn
ImHisChild wrote:

Therefore, I am convinced that nothing stands between us and the rapture other than the condition of the church.


If you believe this, then you really can't believe in the doctrine of imminence (the any-moment return of Christ) at all. In placing the condition of the church as an impediment to Christ's return, you have absolutely ruled out His return altogether until such a time as the church shapes up and attains this state of readiness.

Quote:

So I must conclude that Paul by the Holy Ghost believed that the whole world had heard the gospel and had a chance to receive its provision.


If true, then we must admit that Paul was quite wrong, even if wrong by virtue of his ignorance of the extent of the populated world.

I would much rather say Paul was right, though he was simply using a figure of speech ("the whole world") to express himself. Either Paul was lying, mistaken, or using hyperbole here. In his day, the Gospel hadn't even been preached in every place within the Roman Empire, the area surrounding the Mediterranean, much less had all of Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas been reached with the Gospel in Paul's day.
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Post Hi Theolojohn - pretrib Gradofcogts
Your comments:
Code:
Again, not a one of the scriptures that ImHisChild posted in any way require belief in the pretrib theory. Please show how they do, if you can.


Theolojohn:
I think "require" is the wrong word. As you say we all know the many arguments that seemingly never end. My only point was that the Scriptures used "could" be used to believe in pre-trib and stand on solid enough ground in my opinion to hold that view.

Of course depending upon your particular position you can argue with other Scriptures to stand upon mid, post, or A........

I do appreciate your posts and enjoy your comments. I hope I did not sound to argumentative only that the Scriptures used were enough to base the pre-trib doctrine on in my opinion.

I have studied this doctrine from different views and found that I still hold to the pre-trib. but like you I enjoy hearing from others as it makes me either personally defend my position for my own benefit or better understand the issues raised.

I would like for you speak more about what you have found the early church fathers wrote concerning the subject. My studies in historical and systematic theology have not turned up much writings about eschatology. It appears the early church was busy with God, Son, Church, Canon, etc. rather than writing about catching away.
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4/5/06 11:00 pm


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Post Good Book to Read ImHisChild
John,

Have you read John MacArthur's book on the second coming? You might want to look it over sometime. Good reading and thought provoking.

God Bless
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4/7/06 7:23 am


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