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Can a Believer Speak in Tongues at Will?
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The idea that you can only speak in tongues at some time when you are ecstatic when the Spirit comes on you, not under your control at all, is not just a COG belief. There were some Congregational Holiness people who thought that way. I am not sure of the old PH position on the issue. Maybe it was common in the southeast among movements that used to be or still are believers in sanctification as a one-time act of grace, who were branded as 'holy rollers' even before the Pentecostal movement started.

I can say from I Corinthians 14 that it is possible for certain people to speak in tongues out of turn. I cannot say that everyone who is able to speak in tongues can always do so at will whenever they want.

It's like prophecy or words of knowledge. Some people can just flow in this stuff, regularly getting revelations about things when they pray or minister to people. Other people who get words of knowledge get one oncea year, or once every several months. It's just may not be the same for everyone.

I suspect there may be some fake tongues among churches with both beliefs about tongues. If you tell someone to blank their mind and say whatever bubbles out of their spirit, and have other people say 'shandai shandai' in their ear, they might say 'shandai shandai'-- no Holy Ghost baptism necessary. If someone is groaning emotionally, and some old overweight woman reaches over and grabs the groaners jaw at the altar and moves it up and down and says, "You got it!" and that person believes you, you can emulate tongues, no Holy Ghost baptism needed.

In my experience the AOG and most of the Pentecostal movement believes tongues can be controlled by the believer. (I grew up after the Charismatic movement hit, so I'm not sure on this.) I downloaded a book recently, "Spoken by the Spirit" from the early '70's. It documents 75 accounts, many from AOG churches, of people who spoke in tongues that were understood by speakers of the languages. In some cases, there was a matching intepretation the person who understood could confirm.

Are there any cases of this for the groups that believe in the more ecstatic use of tongues.
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4/3/08 3:17 pm


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J Ryan Herrington wrote:

I think it's a matter of interpretation with 1 Cor 14. We agree on your first point. The second point is iffy. The Spirit doesn't "make" anyone speak in tongues. He gives us the utterance. We either quench the Spirit or obey the Spirit. As for point 3, the fact that Paul is speaking on when to refrain actually reflects the opposite to me. I see Paul as telling the Corinthians to stop the speaking in tongues at will because it's out of order with the Spirit.


Do you believe that the speaker in tongues here is speaking 'as the Spirit gives him utterance' or just babbling? If so, it does not make sense to me for 'speak in tongues' to mean babble when it fits our interpretation in a text, and mean the read thing in another verse.

I do not see anything specific in these verses about the speaker in tongues or the interpreter having to be specifically moved to speak. From personal experience, people here may be able to tell of 'burdens' to speak in tongues or interpret, or how the interpretation comes one time, but not another, as the Spirit wills. The same could be true of other gifts, like teaching. The Spirit might direct someone to teach on a particular issue. But that is not a part of Paul's actual instructions in the passage either. My point is that it seems like you are bringing in an aspect of Pentecostal tradition into the passage when you read it that is not in the passage itself.

Verse 28 would equally apply to the person from the church that believes you have to go into an ecstacy to speak in tongues, who thinks its the Spirit moving when he or she gets emotional, but still speaks in tongues in a disorderly manner without an interpreter.
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Post J Ryan Herrington
I'm not bringing in Pentecostal tradition Link. I'm simply stating the scripture that says "as the Spirit gives the utterance." If He doesn't give the utterance, it's not Him, it's you and me giving ourselves the utterance.

I don't understand what you're trying to say about babbling and meaning the read thing . . . . For me, if the Spirit doesn't give the utterance, then yes it's babbling. It's man made utterances.

As you say you don't see anything that says the speaker has to be moved to speak, I don't see anything that says he doesn't. In fact I see more that implies that you need to be moved to do such a thing. In fact, it seems to me the necessity for chapter 14 to the Corinthians is the fact that many were speaking at will and it was disrupting the service. If tongues are used as the Spirit gives the utterance, then confusion won't exist in the way Paul is instructing. God won't fight with Himself in a service.
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Post NO BishopsWife
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Post J... res0515
there is a big difference in your comparison of your finances vs the Holy Spirit.
"I'm not saying we don't have control. Having control and having the ability is two different things. I have control over my finances, but it doesn't mean I have the ability to pay my bills."

While we may not have the ability to pay our bills, as Spirit Filled believers we do have the ability to speak and pray and sing in tongues at will. Speaking in tongues to edify ourselves is different a message in tongues and interpretation. We are also told to stir up the gifts that are in us.

When I pray in the Spirit or sing, I know that that language is very often different that when I am preaching or in a service setting. We should be praying daily in the Spirit. If we are walking in the Spirit, then it really should be second nature.

Like I said earlier, I can drive by an accident, or hear about someone needing prayer and I start out by praying in the Spirit. I don't have to get worked up or be in a special service. But I also do not pray out loud in certain settings.

I have been in services where there was a message in tongues given, and the minister in charge said he had the interpretation, but would give it at the end of the service. And he did!
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4/3/08 3:55 pm


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Post J Ryan Herrington
I understand what you're saying. The comparisson I am making however is that having control over something doesn't necessarily guarantee the ability to exercise that control.

What I think we're missing here is this: The Bible tells us that none of us are good, not one except God. Paul goes on to say our righteousness hangs like filthy rags next to Christ. We are constantly told in the scriptures that it is nothing of ourselves that we are saved or that we have done, but in all, it's Christ in us. When we say we can speak in tongues at will, we are elevating our ability to give ourselves an utterance to that of the Holy Spirit who gives the utterance. We elevate our fallen flesh man to do this deed. If you say, no it's Christ in us, then you're actually saying, it's the Holy Spirit giving us the utterance and it's not at our will.

You may drive by a wreck and begin to pray in tongues. Is it you or is the Holy Spirit praying through you seeing as you don't know what to pray?

I don't believe there is ever a point in which we can arrive that we are able to manifest the gifts of God and the abilities of the Spirit in and of ourselves. By attempting to do so, we inadvertently rob God of His glory by stating we are able to do this on our own. Who among us can encourage? All can to an extent, but don't we stop and thank God for the ability to have the right words to say or do we lay the ability on our education and just knowing people? I think it's a lot bigger than we think.
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Post res0515
Yes on our own our righteousness is as filthy rags. However, when we are born again, we are born into the family of God. We lift up holy hands. When we are Spirit filled, we put on the person of the Holy Ghost. We are no longer in sin and are new creatures in Christ.

And in answer to your question, it is me praying in the Holy Ghost.

We have been given authority to walk in that anointing. Jesus gave us that in his name. At a time of need in not when we should have to be worked up in order to operate in the gifts, it is time to operate in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.

I am in no way implying that it is in and of ourselves. But it is because the Spirit dwells within us enabling us to do so.

Many times I have been in services where someone is giving a message in tongues and there is no doubt when they go from being in the Spirit to being in the flesh.

But if we walk in the Spirit then we can operate in the Spirit.
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4/3/08 5:12 pm


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Quote:


I understand what you're saying. The comparisson I am making however is that having control over something doesn't necessarily guarantee the ability to exercise that control.


Clearly some of the the Corinthians had the ability to speak in tongues at times when it was not appropriate. The passage is talking about real speaking in tongues, not fake speaking in tongues.
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Post J Ryan Herrington
And you know that how? Acts-celerater
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Post Some food for thought by Ray Hughes Bullseye77
Taken from Bro. Hughes website, this is a very good article.

SPEAKING WITH TONGUES AT WILL

Speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance is the evidence that the Holy Ghost has come to abide with us as the Comforter. The Comforter is the advocate, or strengthener in conflict, who comes alongside to help. So then, speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance is the announcement that the Helper has come to enable us to fulfill the Great Commission. His coming upon us means adequacy for vocation and ability for service.

In these last days of the outpouring of the Spirit, it is not uncommon for the subject of speaking with tongues to be discussed at length in the newspaper and through other news media. However, it is unfortunate that many of those who make an effort to deal with the subject have no background or knowledge of the experience, and therefore approach it from their limited framework of reference. For this reason there are varied and sundry opinions, many of which are not biblically based.

Since speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance is a biblical experience, the starting point of any explanation should be the Scripture and not the experience as such. The Word of God is the final authority in doctrine and practice. The starting point of the subject in the New Testament is Acts 2:4: “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

There are those who contend that they can speak with tongues at will and use the scripture which states “they…..began to speak” (Acts 2:4) to support this theory. However, the scripture must be taken in its entirety. The latter part of the verse states, “as the Spirit gave them utterance.” Man yields his faculties to the Spirit, but he does not initiate the utterance. While he is not passive, he does not form the words to be spoken of his own accord. The Holy Spirit gives him the words. He speaks as the Spirit gives the utterance. Speaking with tongues has little or no significance if the Spirit does not give the utterance.

History reveals that there have been various cults which spoke with tongues, but it was evident that the tongues were not of the Spirit. It is not speaking with tongues that is the evidence of the baptism with the Holy Ghost, but it is speaking with tongues as the SPIRIT GIVES THE UTTERANCE that constitutes the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Likewise, speaking with tongues, as one of the nine spiritual gifts, (1 Corinthians 12:4-11), is not imparted to man to use at his own will. One person in relating his experience said, “The gift of tongues is mine, and I can speak in tongues at any time. I am in control of the gift; I am its steward, so to speak.” Moreover, Scripture declares, “But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will” 1 Corinthians 12:11). The Spirit operates as He wills and not as the individual wills. The high and lofty third person of the Godhead does not submit to the will of man to be used of him or manipulated according to his desires. Therefore, man cannot dictate to the Spirit, He cannot use the Spirit; the Spirit must use him. It is not, Do you have the Holy Spirit? But, Does the Holy Spirit have you?

There is a trend in some charismatic circles toward encouraging people to engage in singing in concert tongues. It is not the prerogative of a minister to direct a congregation in these exercises. It is a very blessed experience to sing in the Spirit and pray in the Spirit as set forth in the Word: “What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also” (1 Corinthians 14:15). But I must repeat that these are not precipitated by man nor directed by man. The Spirit must direct these exercises of worship. Again some place the emphasis upon “I will pray” or “I will sing,” indicating that man initiates the speaking at will; but even a cursory examination of the verse reveals that the exercise originates with the Spirit.

Man does not possess the ability to precondition candidates to speak with biblical tongues. There are no human techniques which can be used to teach candidates for the baptism of the Holy Ghost how to speak with tongues. Speaking with tongues is not a language to be taught by man; it is a spiritual gift given solely by the Spirit. It is not a learned experience, but rather a divinely imparted experience, which rules out the idea that classes can be conducted in which candidates learn certain words or syllables which will lead them to a spiritual language.

The enemy of our souls would seek to cheapen a very glorious experience by placing it on the fleshly human level, thus bringing it into disrepute and ineffectiveness. But those of us who have experienced this divine afflatus and the empowering spirit have no doubt about its biblical authenticity and its experiential reality. We are convinced that speaking with tongues does not have its source in the emotions of man but in the Spirit.

Ray H. Hughes
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Post More thoughts from Dr. Hughes Bullseye77
This article also taken from Bro. Hughes website.

AN ENDEAVOR TO MANIPULATE THE SPIRIT

There is a trend among some Pentecostals to endeavor to manipulate the Spirit. It is the will of God that we have full knowledge concerning matters which pertain to the Spirit. The Apostle Paul instructed the Corinthians: “Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant” (1 Corinthians 12:1). The apostle is saying literally: Concerning things of or pertaining to the Spirit, I want you to have an understanding. Those who would endeavor to use the Spirit, or the spiritual gifts, do no understand that power belongs unto God and that they are only the channels through whom God works. Man does not use the Spirit, but the Spirit in His sovereignty uses men as He wills. We yield ourselves to Him, and He words through us.
One person, in relating his experience, said, “The gift of tongues is mine. I can speak in tongues at any time. I am in control of the gift and I am its steward, so to speak….It is a tongue which is mine just like my command of the English language.” I am not questioning the sincerity of this person, but I stress again that we must go to the Word as our guide for all experiences. The Word of God says: “But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will” (1 Corinthians 12:11). The Spirit does not operate at the behest of the individual, but He works through the individual as He wills.
A person cannot turn speaking in tongues on and off like a faucet; he must speak as the Spirit gives utterance. There are those who will tell you quite frankly that speaking with tongues to them is a psychological release, or a catharsis, and that each morning they speak for personal refreshing. But there is no biblical premise for this type of human control of speaking with tongues. Tongues are a purposeful gift and are not given to be manipulated according to the fancies of men, nor to satisfy the curiosity of men. Tongues come not from man, but from God. Man is merely the vehicle for the transmission of the divine message.
In recent years there has been a great flair for the spectacular in religious circles, and there is danger of pursuing spiritual gifts for the glory of man or for display. Any religious exercise which focuses the attention upon man and does not draw attention to Jesus Christ is not in harmony with the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit seeks to draw attention to Jesus. He glorifies Christ and points people to Him.
Because the gifts of the Spirit are so precious and intriguing, people are attracted to them as was Simon, the sorcerer. Simon wanted this power so that he might use it for his own personal gain. But God has reserved His gifts for the confirmation of His Word and to meet the needs and emergencies of humanity. At all times the Holy Spirit’s operation must be according to His pattern-the Word.

Ray H. Hughes
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Post DHDRabbi
Paul STILL had to instruct the Holy Spirit when to speak in church IF it is always the Spirit that initiates the speaking. Why? How would he have the audacity to tell people who speak as the Spirit gives the utterance to shut up? Yet, he does.

in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

What gall!!
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Post Randy Johnson
J Ryan Herrington wrote:
I say no. I can't find any scripture that suggests we ever have control.


Paul wrote:
14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with [p]your spirit,[/b] how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand[a] say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?


These Scriptures indicate that there is an act of the human will involved in speaking in tongues. Certainly before someone is baptized in the Spirit they cannot speak in tongues at will, but after they are baptized, the Holy Spirit abides within them permanently, He does not come and go. Since the Spirit is continually within us we continually have the ability to pray with our spirit as well as our understanding.

I think the confusion comes from misunderstanding what it means for the Spirit to "give utterance." I believe the generally accepted idea is that the Holy Spirit "takes us over" and we become automatons under the influence of the Holy Spirit. I don't think this understanding is correct. I don't believe the Holy Spirit operates in us the same way demons operate in those who are possessed by them.

The only difference between praying in tongues and praying in my native language is the source of the vocabulary. When I pray in English, I use the words of English stored up in my mind. I do the speaking and my mind is the source of the vocabulary. When I pray in tongues, I use words provided to me by the Holy Spirit who dwells within me. I do the speaking, but the Holy Spirit is the source of the vocabulary.

The important issue in all of this is that I am filled with the Holy Spirit and remain filled with the Spirit.
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Post Re: Some food for thought by Ray Hughes Randy Johnson
Bullseye77 wrote:
Taken from Bro. Hughes website, this is a very good article.


I agree with this article when it comes to manifesting tongues in a church service for the edification of the body; however, I disagree in the sense that those who speak in tongues in private prayer are not doing the same thing as manifesting gift of the Spirit in a public assembly.

In an assembly of believers, tongues should be manifested only under the direct unction of the Spirit in agreement with the Scriptures.

In private prayer, tongues are an ability given by the Spirit to pray with our spirit, bypassing the prejudices and limitations of our human minds.

Certainly no one should have an attitude that they possess the gift themselves or that they personally control it or the Holy Spirit.
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Post Randy Johnson
Worship1980 wrote:
I have only been filled with the Spirit since December. It was the most wonderful experience next to salvation that I have ever had. I am new in the Spirit so let me ask a question....I quess I thought that after being filled I would speak in tongues regularly (in prayer, during service etc) but I have not. I am so worried that I will be in the flesh (not of the Spirit). Do you think I am hindering the Spirit from speaking through me?


Your fear of being in the flesh may possibly be hindering you. You need to exercise faith that the Holy Spirit is in you, and since he is in you, he is there to enable you to pray with your spirit. I wouldn't let worry overcome your desire to be led by the Spirit and used by the Spirit. Paul instructed the believers to eagerly desire spiritual manifestations, that is not a passive desire, that is a zealous desire that steps out in faith in obedience to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

You need to spend time in prayer and tell the Lord you are willing to be used by him in any way he desires, and tell him if you eagerly desire to be used in spiritual manifestations. That is a Scriptural prayer to pray since Paul instructed the believers to do so. Then, after you have prayed, believe that you have received what you have requested from the Lord, and be sensitive to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Finally, when you sense the Spirit's prompting, OBEY! Open your mouth, lift up your voice, and begin to speak. The Holy Spirit will provide the words, you provide the faith and the sound.

Remember, God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of love, power, and self-control.
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Post Re: Memory... Randy Johnson
urbothwrong wrote:
Since tongues is a gift - would Acts 2 not imply the "showing you how to use it" - compared to Jude? The gift is yours - do you still need permission or shown how to use it?


Actually, I question whether or not tongues is a gift, given the fact that the word gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:1 was added by the translators of the King James Version and was not in the original text. The word was added so that the verse would make grammatical sense in English, but in the original it is not there. The literal translation of 12:1 is "Now concerning spirituals, brethren, I would not have you ignorant." Obviously, such a translation does not make sense in English, so the translators added the word gifts.

As a result of this translator's addition to the text, when we get down to 12:8-10 we see gifts everywhere, when in fact it may be more accurate to take our cue from 12:7 instead of 12:2. 12:7 says But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal."
So the following list in 12:8-10 is a list of manifestations of the Holy Spirit not gifts of the Holy Spirit![/i]

Why is this distinction important? Because the word gift implies a transfer of ownership and leads to abuse. That is why someone would say, as was quoted earlier in this thread, "The gift is mine. I control it." There is truth in this statement based on our common understanding of the word gift. If I give you a gift, then it belongs to you and no longer belongs to me.

It is better to regard these as manifestations of the Holy Spirit rather than gifts, because the word manifestation keeps the emphasis on the Person of the Holy Spirit, and His presence and power. It is the manifestation of a Person, not simply a gift of power.
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Post J Ryan Herrington
I agree Pastor Randy that we don't become automations for the Holy Spirit. There is an act of human will. We have the choice to quench the Spirit or be obedient as He gives the utterance. Acts-celerater
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Post DHDRabbi
The fact remains that if Paul has to instruct believers when they can and cannot speak in tongues, it stands to reason that it is the believers' choice on when they speak. Otherwise, Paul is instructing the Holy Spirit when He can and cannot speak in a church service.

Think about this. Paul asks us to make sure there is an interpreter present before we give a message in tongues. If we don't choose when we speak, why would we be responsible for knowing if an interpreter was there? Wouldn't the Holy Spirit already know that?
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Post Ichthus77
DHDRabbi wrote:
The fact remains that if Paul has to instruct believers when they can and cannot speak in tongues, it stands to reason that it is the believers' choice on when they speak. Otherwise, Paul is instructing the Holy Spirit when He can and cannot speak in a church service.

Think about this. Paul asks us to make sure there is an interpreter present before we give a message in tongues. If we don't choose when we speak, why would we be responsible for knowing if an interpreter was there? Wouldn't the Holy Spirit already know that?


It's so obvious and logical, but you know tradition..... Laughing
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Ichthus77 wrote:

It's so obvious and logical, but you know tradition..... Laughing


It is typical when doctrinal issues are discussed in this forum. If someone presents a case for doctrine from scripture that destroys a traditional COG, Cleveland position, so often no one addresses the points that contradict the COG denominational position, and no one changes their position. It just seems strange to me.
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