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Is the Trinity Scriptural?
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Post "echad" The strict Constructionis
The same word "echad" that is used in Duet. 6:4 is also used in Mal. 2:10 which says,

Quote:
Have we not all ONE Father?
Has not ONE God created us?


So I guess that means the Father Himself is a Father of three persons.

Gee, thanks Spartan fan for this great exegesis of the word "echad".
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5/1/07 8:12 pm


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Post Re: "echad" Scooter
The strict Constructionis wrote:

So I guess that means the Father Himself is a Father of three persons.

.


Response: Now you're getting it! He is one Father who is one with His Son and His own Spirit. As the scripture says without any twists.
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5/1/07 8:42 pm


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Post Scooter, you can't have it both ways The strict Constructionis
Mal. 2:10 is plainly referring to the FATHER, not the "other members of the trinity". Do you REALLY think a trinity is what Malachi had in mind here?

And you guys accuse us of twisting things? Get real!

I'm truly embarrassed for you, brother.

Really what you've described here is Bi-tarianism, because you did not make the Spirit a seperate person from the Father.

Hag. 2:1,
Quote:
In the seventh [month], in the ONE and twentieth [day] of the month, came the word of the LORD by the prophet Haggai,
saying,.......


So are we to surmise that because "echad" is used in this verse, that the twenty-first day of the monthly actually was three days long?
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5/1/07 9:10 pm


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Post Re: Scooter, you can't have it both ways Scooter
The strict Construction is wrote:
Mal. 2:10 is plainly referring to the FATHER, not the "other members of the trinity". Do you REALLY think a trinity is what Malachi had in mind here?

And you guys accuse us of twisting things? Get real!

I'm truly embarrassed for you, brother.


Response: Don't be embarrassed for me, I think most here see your ignoring of the obvious. See the difference between me and you is I can believe in One God the Father and the Three ways He has chosen to reveal himself. You however are stuck in denying one of the ways He has chosen thinking it means multiple Gods. Rolling Eyes
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5/1/07 9:26 pm


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Post then tell me, Scooter............ The strict Constructionis
WHEN did God the Father CHOOSE do manifest Himself this way?

Quote:
I can believe in One God the Father and the Three ways He has chosen to reveal himself


Welcome to the world of Oneness! You are NOT a trinitarian!

A true trinitarian believes that from all eternity God has existed as three persons. He had no choice in the matter.

But to say that He at some point CHOSE to REVEAL Himself in three ways is NOT trinitarianism. That is what WE believe.

You even said that it is GOD THE FATHER who reveals Himself three ways. So the FATHER is indeed ALL THREE.

Now you get it!
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5/1/07 9:38 pm


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Post Strict, You're Right About Scooter's Statement FloridaForever
That's one reason I find Trinitarianism so disconcerting--those who believe it can't even articulate it!

No, Trinitarians do NOT believe in ONE GOD who manifests Himself in three different ways (or perhaps 10 different ways, if you count the seven spirits of God--smile). Rather, Trinitarians believe in ONE GOD consisting of THREE DISTINCT PERSONS.

Ludicrous.

Of course, to be fair, Strict, Oneness is wrong, too. If Jesus is God, then He doesn't HAVE a God. But the Bible says He does.
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5/2/07 5:18 am


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Post Re: then tell me, Scooter............ Scooter
The strict Constructionis wrote:
WHEN did God the Father CHOOSE do manifest Himself this way?

Quote:
I can believe in One God the Father and the Three ways He has chosen to reveal himself


Welcome to the world of Oneness! You are NOT a trinitarian!

A true trinitarian believes that from all eternity God has existed as three persons. He had no choice in the matter.

But to say that He at some point CHOSE to REVEAL Himself in three ways is NOT trinitarianism. That is what WE believe.

You even said that it is GOD THE FATHER who reveals Himself three ways. So the FATHER is indeed ALL THREE.

Now you get it!


Response: Great! I'm glad that we could come to this point.

Although I believe all three have existed in God and are God for eternity. Cool

The choice is in how he decides to do things not some creative act, apart from His Spirit or Christ.
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5/2/07 6:04 am


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Post Re: Strict, You're Right About Scooter's Statement Scooter
FloridaForever wrote:
That's one reason I find Trinitarianism so disconcerting--those who believe it can't even articulate it!

No, Trinitarians do NOT believe in ONE GOD who manifests Himself in three different ways (or perhaps 10 different ways, if you count the seven spirits of God--smile). Rather, Trinitarians believe in ONE GOD consisting of THREE DISTINCT PERSONS.

Ludicrous.

Of course, to be fair, Strict, Oneness is wrong, too. If Jesus is God, then He doesn't HAVE a God. But the Bible says He does.


Response: See the problem is you have made trinitarianism a false religion with vain imaginations.

I believe in one God with three distinct persons, that make up that one.

I believe in one God who chooses to reveal himself through His Son and His Spirit.

While you may think these statements are ludicrous and opposed, that's okay. It's a symptom of your own struggle.

I and the Father ARE ONE.

I know that pea brains have trouble by faith accepting the Word of God but there you have it in a nut shell.

How can one be two???????

The same way three can be one! Laughing Cool

Yall have a great day. Cool
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5/2/07 6:13 am


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Post "eternally chose"? The strict Constructionis
So you believe that God has existed as three persons from all eternity, yet at some point He chose to do so. Ok.

That's like sayng God has existed from all eternity but was created in 1887.
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5/2/07 8:23 am


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Post Fla Fvr The strict Constructionis
I've sent you a copy of an essay that I posted on this board a few months back. I think it articulates the oneness view pretty well and answers your concerns without resorting to trinitarianism.

It also indirectly clarifies some of the ridiculous assertions made by spartanfan.
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5/2/07 8:30 am


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Post Re: "eternally chose"? Scooter
The strict Constructionis wrote:
So you believe that God has existed as three persons from all eternity, yet at some point He chose to do so. Ok.

That's like sayng God has existed from all eternity but was created in 1887.


Response: How He has chosen to reveal Himself is not the same as He created parts to reveal, but if that's what you have to believe to make you right and me wrong, oh well.

I'm not the one having to edit my post to avoid people finding in print under my name that Jesus was not God.

A can believe the Word that says Jesus AND the Father are ONE.

You can't.

I can believe that it is HIS Spirit with which we are filled, if we are.

You can't.

I'm not the one saying Jesus was created and didn't exist before the foundation of the world.

You two are.

I think you are afraid to lay out for all to see what you do believe, whether its "I've not figured out how the Holy Ghost fits in" or "Jesus was not God, literally" or "Jesus was created" or God the Father never spoke from Heaven while Jesus was on earth"

When I display what you believe you get angry and belittle me, as ludicrous, etc. and try to twist what I say. I'm big enough to take it. Cool

Are you big enough to stand by your statements, quit deleting and editing the statement you do make.

I've never signed on to Trinitarianism, though I believe in The Father, Son and Holy Ghost as distinct yet one. I've never signed on to oneness though I believe in one true and living God.

I simple believe what the Bible says and trust that rather than my own understanding.

Hey maybe I'm a Onetrinitarianismist. Cool
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5/2/07 8:59 am


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Post That's funnyforever spartanfan
FloridaForever wrote:
That's one reason I find Trinitarianism so disconcerting--those who believe it can't even articulate it!

How articulate is the leader of the second largest oneness denomination in America: when told by one of his leading ministers that "I'm having some serious doubts because I keep seeing the Trinity all through the Bible", he responded by saying, "Now Brother __________, we've been riding this horse a long time and you don't change horses in the middle of a stream." How lame can you get - that is the leader? Probably considered the number two oneness advocate in the world and that is his defense to a troubled minister - "We've been riding this horse for a long time". Oh yeah - that is so articulate! I'm convinced now (lol)!
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5/2/07 9:07 am


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Post Spartanfan...CAN YOU READ THIS??? FloridaForever
First, I don't care if the head of the Oneness movement is a flaming homosexual. That does not in itself invalidate his position (no more than Haggard's fall invalidates the trinitiy).

So quite using that LAME argument, as thought that proves Oneness wrong. It does not.

Second, I AM NOT ONENESS! Never have been. Think it's wrong. Have said so. So your argument does not apply to me AT ALL.

Do you have an SCRIPTURE to go along with you anecdotes?
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5/2/07 9:16 am


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Post Re: Spartanfan...CAN YOU READ THIS??? Scooter
FloridaForever wrote:
First, I don't care if the head of the Oneness movement is a flaming homosexual. That does not in itself invalidate his position (no more than Haggard's fall invalidates the trinitiy).

Second, I AM NOT ONENESS! Never have been. Think it's wrong. Have said so. So your argument does not apply to me AT ALL.



Response: So you're BI?
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5/2/07 9:34 am


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Post scooter The strict Constructionis
Quote:
I'm not the one saying Jesus was created and didn't exist before the foundation of the world You two are.


When did I say that? If your referring to my stance that God's manifestation as the SON came into being at a certain point in time, then I freely admit that.

That does not mean "Jesus was created". If it does, then trinitarians are guilty of the same thing, because trinitarians do not always believe that the "second person" had a human body to live in. They also believe that came about through the incarnation.

Quote:
I think you are afraid to lay out for all to see what you do believe, whether its "I've not figured out how the Holy Ghost fits in" or "Jesus was not God, literally" or "Jesus was created" or God the Father never spoke from Heaven while Jesus was on earth"


I've made it very clear that the Spirit and the Father are one and the same, else Jesus has two fathers. It was the Holy Ghost that "overshadowed" Mary and brought forth the incarnation. Jesus is fathered by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is Jehovah, "God is Spirit".

You've even admitted that the Holy Ghost is "the Father's own Spirit". If that is so, then how is the Spirit "another person"? Is YOUR spirit another person? Do you talk to your spirit? Does it answer you? If you answer"yes", then you need psychiatric help.


Quote:
I've never signed on to Trinitarianism, though I believe in The Father, Son and Holy Ghost as distinct yet one.


Is that the bugle sounding "retreat" I hear?
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5/2/07 10:02 am


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Post Let me be clear.......... The strict Constructionis
...... NOBODY has a 100% clear picture of the Godhead. ALL of us come short in describing this awesome God we serve.

It grieves me that the oneness and trinity camps have been so divided in the past. BOTH sides share the blame.

A few years ago, the UPC attempted to reconcile with the AG. The offer was refused. At the same time, the AG was contacting the Catholic Church trying to determine whether or not there was a way the two groups could celebrate communion together. Go figure.

The UPC I attend is a loving, compassionate group. Our pastor doesn't compromise his beliefs, but is compassionate and endorses ministries outside of the OP ranks.

While he is "old time holiness", he preaches hard against "performance based salvation" and seasons all of his messages with grace.

That's why when I read the rantings of Spartanfan or Rafael, I just shake my head. They have not seen all sides of this movement but instead focus on the extreme cases.
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5/2/07 10:17 am


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Post Re: scooter Scooter
The strict Constructionis wrote:


You've even admitted that the Holy Ghost is "the Father's own Spirit". If that is so, then how is the Spirit "another person"? Is YOUR spirit another person? do you talk to your spirit? Does it answer you? If you answer"yes", then you need psychiatric help.


Response:Another person???Where does that come from???? As Stephen had the Holy Ghost the Spirit of the Father in him while at the same time viewing the Lord in Heaven. DID HE HAVE ANOTHER PERSON'S SPIRIT? Laughing Maybe he needed a psycho check up too.

I don't see why you pigeonhole God so.

God could have easily verified your false doctrine many times but chose rather to say things like there are three, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. God SENT His Son. I AND the Father are one. I must go that He may come. I will walk in them.

Simply reducing God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost to omnipresent disregards scripture.

It is hard to dialog with the snipes rather than you going ahead and laying out what you believe to discuss. These little snippets really don't do you justice.

We've heard how wrong we are but every time we get a glimpse of a portion of what you hold to it seems to have holes. Like "God left heaven as Jesus". Is that what you think?


The strict Constructionis wrote:
Is that the bugle sounding "retreat" I hear?


Response: From what? You'll get to know me better than that. Cool
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5/2/07 10:25 am


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Post First of all, remember.... spartanfan
FloridaForever wrote:
That's one reason I find Trinitarianism so disconcerting--those who believe it can't even articulate it!

In response to you saying one reason you question Trinitarianism is because those who believe it can't articulate it, I responded:
How articulate is the leader of the second largest oneness denomination in America: when told by one of his leading ministers that "I'm having some serious doubts because I keep seeing the Trinity all through the Bible", he responded by saying, "Now Brother __________, we've been riding this horse a long time and you don't change horses in the middle of a stream." How lame can you get - that is the leader? Probably considered the number two oneness advocate in the world and that is his defense to a troubled minister - "We've been riding this horse for a long time". Oh yeah - that is so articulate! I'm convinced now (lol)!

To which you blew up saying:
First, I don't care if the head of the Oneness movement is a flaming homosexual. That does not in itself invalidate his position (no more than Haggard's fall invalidates the trinitiy).

So quite using that LAME argument, as thought that proves Oneness wrong. It does not.

Sounds to me like you want to raise concerns over the Trinitarians not being able to adequately explain the Trinity while you don't think that it's relevant that the leader of the second largest oneness denomination in America was ridiculously lame in articulating his defense of their false doctrine. Do you operate under a different set of rules than those that you try to hold me to? Your argument is LAMER than you claim mine to be.
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5/2/07 4:00 pm


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Post spartanfan The strict Constructionis
Can you provide documentation of this "quote" you keep referring to?

I have met scores of former trinitarian pastors that are now OP.

But I don't use that to prove the Oneness doctrine.
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5/2/07 6:13 pm


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Post Of course it is doyle
Of course it is and I'd hate to spend even one day without the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

However, some of our terms may not be included in Scriture. To my knowledge the words "Trinity" aren't contained in Scripture but obviously the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are.
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