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Should COG ministers be allowed to pastor nonCOG churches?
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Post Exposing Other Denominations To The COG BV COG
Is a great idea... there are plenty of licensed ministers on the sidelines, just make sure the state office and the DO's keep an eye on these boys!
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4/18/07 4:21 pm


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Post This is not a wholesale abondoning of denom.... SkyPilot
I do not think anyone here is advocating a wholesale opening of the doors. What I do think that if there is a like type church that needs a pastor long term, or a non-like type church that needs an interim shepherd, we could provide that. Let's say the Baptist church around the corner needs a 6 week supply pastor to get over the pastor search hump, what would be the problem if I filled that pulpit? If the local COGOP could not find a pastor, they are sometimes very short in the northeast, maybe there is a glut of COG pastors in the area. That is a great match.

Now this is not for everybody, the same as me working as a military chaplain. It is not for everybody. Apart from the physical aspects and the obvious dangers, I am a pastor to everybody, no matter their religious belief. i am not required at anytime to violate my own beliefs, but I am given the honor of being the pastor of all.

This could be a great deal.
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4/18/07 4:21 pm


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Post Re: really? Pastor Gary
Telecaster wrote:
Alright Gary, if I could ask you to step off your spiritual high horse for a moment and be realistic for a second. Maybe that won't be too hard . . .


I have no desire to dialog with you while you resort to such personalizations. I responded to you with respect and dealt point-by-point with my areas of difference with you. You replied with a personal insinuation.
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4/18/07 4:28 pm


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Post Re: really? Telecaster
Pastor Gary wrote:
Telecaster wrote:
Alright Gary, if I could ask you to step off your spiritual high horse for a moment and be realistic for a second. Maybe that won't be too hard . . .


I have no desire to dialog with you while you resort to such personalizations. I responded to you with respect and dealt point-by-point with my areas of difference with you. You replied with a personal insinuation.


My simple dialogue back to you was in response to generalizations. I mean nobody on this board is a complete uneducated person. Obviously everything you pointed out is true, but it didn't answer the questions and was practically spoken from an over exalting point of view, as in anyone who disagreed couldn't possibly understand kingdom work.

If that wasn't your intentions, then my apologies are extended. After all typing words and saying them can cause confusion.
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4/18/07 5:36 pm


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Post Re: One of the smartest things that could happen Telecaster
doyle wrote:
It's been over 20 years ago that I began writing editorials encouraging the COG to not only allow COG ministers to pastor non-aligned churches but to have an active program for doing that.

The editorials were viewed as if some radical person was trying to destroy the COG when in reality, if we put OUR people in THEIR church it only makes us new friends, spreads the positive image of the COG, helps their young people learn about our colleges, attend our camps, give to our missionaries.

Get our people out there meeting hundreds of new people who aren't COG members??? What a radical concept. Or, continue to shuffle them around within our little system, church-to-church, year-after-year.

In my opinion it's actually BRAIN DEAD not to allow this to happen. We're invloved in world evangelism not THE TRUMAN SHOW where walls are built to keep us all inside while there is a massive world out there.

Doyle


I'll agree Doyle in principle, yet who's to say that when "our" guys go into another denomination to expose it to ours, that they don't end up forsaking the denomination and any monetary support received and any other means of support received would have been wasted and actually used to build a church outside of the denomination when there are churches in our denomination that need the funds, especially in those areas in which church plants are needed.
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4/18/07 5:39 pm


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Post Re: really? Pastor Gary
Telecaster wrote:
If that wasn't your intentions, then my apologies are extended.


Accepted.

Telecaster wrote:
After all typing words and saying them can cause confusion.


I have strong opinions, little time for subtleties, and don't mean to come across as anything except a brother in Christ attempting to expand the dialog with my views.
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4/18/07 6:05 pm


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Post TheoloJohn
I honestly don't see why CoG-credentialed ministers shouldn't be allowed to pastor non-CoG churches, especially in view of the fact that in most states we have a ratio of at least 2:1 (if not 3:1 or 4:1) of credentialed ministers to churches.

We could make some kind of arrangement like the Assemblies of God does when an A/G minister pastors a non-A/G church; in such cases, the minister tithes directly into the denomination, and is still subject to the discipline (if necessary) and authority of the denomination, so long as he or she holds credentials with said organization.
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4/18/07 11:28 pm


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Post roughridercog
TheoloJohn wrote:
I honestly don't see why CoG-credentialed ministers shouldn't be allowed to pastor non-CoG churches, especially in view of the fact that in most states we have a ratio of at least 2:1 (if not 3:1 or 4:1) of credentialed ministers to churches.

We could make some kind of arrangement like the Assemblies of God does when an A/G minister pastors a non-A/G church; in such cases, the minister tithes directly into the denomination, and is still subject to the discipline (if necessary) and authority of the denomination, so long as he or she holds credentials with said organization.


That is exactly what I'm saying.
Let's ordain the person and turn them loose for ministry. Don't put them on a short leash.
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4/19/07 7:52 am


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Post Re: One of the smartest things that could happen SkyPilot
Telecaster wrote:
I'll agree Doyle in principle, yet who's to say that when "our" guys go into another denomination to expose it to ours, that they don't end up forsaking the denomination and any monetary support received and any other means of support received would have been wasted and actually used to build a church outside of the denomination when there are churches in our denomination that need the funds, especially in those areas in which church plants are needed.


1. If they wind up joining another denom, is that a problem? Every minister needs to find a place they are comfortable and if another denom is that place, good.

2. There is no indication in any of the post that there would be COG monetary support for these ministers. If you are planting a COG church, sure you should grow up and be COG. If you are going out to work with an AG church then COG should not be paying a salary. If COG helps to educate a minister there should be a non-compete clause in the contract for the educational assistance. In other words, you will not switch denoms within a certain number of years of the educational aid. If we pay for it, we get our money's worth.

Overall, another poster noted there are too many ministers in COG. Maybe this would be a way of thinning the herd. Let some go. Why do we have that many ministers with no active call?

This combined with an evaluation system could very well thin the herd enough to allow for better opportunities to do ministry.
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4/19/07 9:41 am


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Post Re: One of the smartest things that could happen Telecaster
SkyPilot wrote:
Telecaster wrote:
I'll agree Doyle in principle, yet who's to say that when "our" guys go into another denomination to expose it to ours, that they don't end up forsaking the denomination and any monetary support received and any other means of support received would have been wasted and actually used to build a church outside of the denomination when there are churches in our denomination that need the funds, especially in those areas in which church plants are needed.


1. If they wind up joining another denom, is that a problem? Every minister needs to find a place they are comfortable and if another denom is that place, good.

2. There is no indication in any of the post that there would be COG monetary support for these ministers. If you are planting a COG church, sure you should grow up and be COG. If you are going out to work with an AG church then COG should not be paying a salary. If COG helps to educate a minister there should be a non-compete clause in the contract for the educational assistance. In other words, you will not switch denoms within a certain number of years of the educational aid. If we pay for it, we get our money's worth.

Overall, another poster noted there are too many ministers in COG. Maybe this would be a way of thinning the herd. Let some go. Why do we have that many ministers with no active call?

This combined with an evaluation system could very well thin the herd enough to allow for better opportunities to do ministry.


I agree to an extent, but if you're holding license and are not doing anything with them, and have not been for a while, I don't know that you need to pastor a church in the COG or any denomination for that matter without first figuring out if ministry is what your supposed to do.

As for those looking for opportunities, Travis Johnson posted some great posts on church planting. Before we send our guys to pastor other denomination's churches, how about we send them to go evangelize with our doctrine and creed those in places where there are no churches like the Pacific NW and the NE and the Plains regions and so forth.

Again, if you're COG, be COG. If you want to pastor another denomination's church with no intent to make it COG, then be a part of that denomination.
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4/19/07 9:51 am


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Post I agree that if you don't want to be COG.... SkyPilot
go somewhere else. I do not think this would be a large issue even if allowed. I also think that there are many ministry opportunities for ministers besides pastoring. Some of us are not cut out for the senior pastor role. I for one see myself as #2 and think I do a pretty good job of being a #2. I have pastored once and it did not fit me well. There are also places working for non-profits, chaplaincy, institutional ministry, evangelization, missionaries, etc.

I do think there are a glut of ministers in COG, but a lot of that is because it is too easy to become a minister in COG. There are too few "gates" involved. In other words, there should be a better process of vetting and training our ministerial candidates, both to prepare them for ministry and to require and allow time for introspection and evaluation of their call. It also gives us the responsibility and opportunity to evaluate their fitness (emotional, mental and spiritual) for ministry.

Many people think that all it requires is a call, however interpreted, to be a minister. Paul, John, Timothy--they did not have anyone to vett them for ministry. I agree, they were vetted by God himself and the presence of God was evident in their ministries. But we know there was a process of somekind. Paul ministered in Antioch for many years before he took his first journey. many beleive it was a time of ensuring he was ready for the mission field.

By creating a stronger process of training and evaluating ministers we give ourselves another opportunity to "thin the herd" and not have so many unemployed ministers that are not making a contribution to the Kingdom as minsters. They may be making a great contribution in other ways, but does it require that they have a "REV" in front of their name.

Just some thoughts that may be a sloght tangent from the original discussion.
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4/19/07 10:41 am


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Post I used to be against associated congregations roughridercog
But at this time in my life, I think I'm in favor of them. The same way that I'm in favor of a COG pastor having the freedom to fulfill his ministry in ways that give honor to God.
The idea that COG preacher should only pastor COG should go the way of the dinosaur.

The only reason why I can see it being fought so hard is as follows:

1. It's never been done that way in the COG before and it gets us out of a comfortable system with a comfortable way of doing things.
2. It can mean less control over ministers.
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Post heislord54
If the COG sets up any ministry to have an organization outside the church then once its established for one it must be followed for all. For example Perry Stone has his manifest ministry. It is not under, controlled by the Church of God. They allow him to remain credentialed because it gives the COG publicity. I even wonder whether stone is a member a COG church. They just made Marcus Lamb a bishop once again a ministry not in the COG however still allowed to keep credentials. I would also wonder if he is even a member of the COG.

I think the Church should be no different. As a matter of fact if you take a pastor who starts a Church and the AB gives him one year. That Church starts running over a thousand there is no way there going to touch that man. I know of story like that. They just sort of let him go even when he wont bring the church in. However you take a pastor who starts a church and runs 50 and they wont bring it in they would throw him out in a second. It just seems like even in are own movement of rules they brake them whenever it suits them to do so.

So to answer you question rough, There already allowing this to happen. It just depends how big of a name you have.
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4/19/07 11:52 am


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Post YES! Most certainly Ichthus77
Why is the COG so backward on this? Is it politics and control? How do you think the Assemblies of God have grown so big? Extended influence everywhere and not inbred thinking. Thousands of independent churches and associations have become AOG because of the influence of AOG guys.
We allow it in every other ministry, why not the pastor? COG teachers teach outside the COG, COG evangelists minister in many churches outside the COG, COG MOMs work in churches outside the COG, so why is it almost "treachery" according to some for pastors to do the same?
Some think it will allow unhealthy teaching in. OK, if the pastor is COG, WHO is doing the preaching and teaching? The COG!! You put a COG guy in a Baptist church and what do you think they will hear about the Holy Spirit and the gifts? (don't think that's likely to happen though, just an example) Any other organization would jump at the chance to put their preachers in other churches pulpits and spread their doctrine and beliefs (especially false groups like Mormons and JWs LOL), so why can't COG guys spread sound doctrine as far as they let us go? It would bring a lot more independent churches in in the long run, because if its the guy at the helm that's steering the ship, where do you think the ship will go?
My hat is off to the COGOP for progressing right past us on this issue. I was not aware of that.

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Post roughridercog
heislord54 wrote:
If the COG sets up any ministry to have an organization outside the church then once its established for one it must be followed for all. For example Perry Stone has his manifest ministry. It is not under, controlled by the Church of God. They allow him to remain credentialed because it gives the COG publicity. I even wonder whether stone is a member a COG church. They just made Marcus Lamb a bishop once again a ministry not in the COG however still allowed to keep credentials. I would also wonder if he is even a member of the COG.

I think the Church should be no different. As a matter of fact if you take a pastor who starts a Church and the AB gives him one year. That Church starts running over a thousand there is no way there going to touch that man. I know of story like that. They just sort of let him go even when he wont bring the church in. However you take a pastor who starts a church and runs 50 and they wont bring it in they would throw him out in a second. It just seems like even in are own movement of rules they brake them whenever it suits them to do so.

So to answer you question rough, There already allowing this to happen. It just depends how big of a name you have.


Perry started his association through his father's church. This was before the Church of God started letting evangelists set up nonprofit organizations. In fact, it was the polity that an evangelist not be allowed to set up a nonprofit organization without permission of general headquarters.
Now we allow evangelists to do so and the result is great ministries like Perry's. One wonders what would happen if we took the limitations off our ministers.
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Post heislord54
Perry started his association through his father's church. This was before the Church of God started letting evangelists set up nonprofit organizations. In fact, it was the polity that an evangelist not be allowed to set up a nonprofit organization without permission of general headquarters.
Now we allow evangelists to do so and the result is great ministries like Perry's. One wonders what would happen if we took the limitations off our ministers.[/quote]

The System for years destroy and keep alot of people from being far more then they could have been.

T.L. Lowery was the biggest Evangelist not to the COG but the world. The COG pull him in and said either them or us. Either go to the world or come in to the COG and you will hold every position of high esteem in this church. However you can not do both. This was the time when T.L. was holding huge world wide tent meetings and he was getting ready to go on TV. He was preaching more to non COG and he was starting to be a house hold name not to the COG but to the kingdom of God. We all know he choose the COG and they were very good to T.L. and he was everything they told him he would be. However in a recent meeting he said I wonder what I could have been if.

Listen to how big Jimmy Swaggart thought he could be. T.L. One day many decades ago when He want to start the National church T.L. was setting in Jimmy Swaggert office. This was at the time when Jimmy was thee TV Evangelist. T.L. ask jimmy for his mailing list for DC area. Jimmy told his Secretary to go get it right away. Someone ask him why would you do that no one ever gives up there mailing list. Jimmy told that person because if T.L. didnt bow out there would be no Jimmy Swaggert. This whole thing would be T.L. instead of Jimmy. The moment he bowed to them it open the door for me. So I will give him whatever he wants because I owe him big time.

I wonder how many great churches and pastors the cog are either losing or being keep from being in the COG because they told the next T.L. of pastoring either go this way or that way.
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4/19/07 9:57 pm


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Post In My Humble Opinion... Min Music
COG "Allow me" to work outside of the COG ?

I love the COG, I think that It's teaching's are probably the closest thing to lining up to the Bible as any other denomination, etc...., BUT - but the good ole' Church of My God, ain't God.

There are some COG's and COG pastor's in this area that I have the most respect for. I used to work in the COG, but - you know what, I really believe that I am where God wants me to be right now. My wife and I have prayed, I placed the fleece out, you name it... I am where I am, and I'm being used where I am. (hint - I'm not working in a COG right now.)
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Post It would be a real adjustment for some of our men roughridercog
If they pastored outside the COG they'd have to learn to work a little better with a congregational form of government. They might have to do a few in depth interviews with a church rather than merely have an AB run their name.
It would help them clarify their positions and their call.
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Post Should RLV? NPS39
According to this line of thought, should Lamar Vest have his credentials revoked now that he is serving in a non COG position? Is the COG the kingdom of God? Are we the actual bride of Christ? Or are we a vehicle that God uses to communicate and transport the gospel? Has this denomination developed a big brother is watching you mentality?

We talk about expansion and the breaking down of walls, and yet, there are those that speak of keeping an eye on people and worrying about what they may or may not do. What about this Billy Wilson guy from the COGOP, isn't this a tremendous opportunity for kingdom partnership, or do we just see it as a dating exercise that we hope will eventually result in a marriage between two denominations? And if we are hoping for a marriage is it because we are in love and want to expand the kingdom or is it because we desire to merge and make ourselves look better?

Perhaps the reason our denomination is not growing my leaps and bounds is because we have resorting to inbreeding and are producing unhealthy children!

I say that wherever a person finds himself able to minister let him minister. His doctrine and loyalty to the movement will show true if it is in his heart...if not, he won't be loyal within the movement anyway!

We have bred rebellion and don't know how to deal with it!

We need to get over ourselves and get back to the principles of the kingdom!

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4/20/07 9:13 am


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Post Re: Should RLV? Memory03
NPS39 wrote:
According to this line of thought, should Lamar Vest have his credentials revoked now that he is serving in a non COG position? Is the COG the kingdom of God? Are we the actual bride of Christ? Or are we a vehicle that God uses to communicate and transport the gospel? Has this denomination developed a big brother is watching you mentality?

We talk about expansion and the breaking down of walls, and yet, there are those that speak of keeping an eye on people and worrying about what they may or may not do. What about this Billy Wilson guy from the COGOP, isn't this a tremendous opportunity for kingdom partnership, or do we just see it as a dating exercise that we hope will eventually result in a marriage between two denominations? And if we are hoping for a marriage is it because we are in love and want to expand the kingdom or is it because we desire to merge and make ourselves look better?

Perhaps the reason our denomination is not growing my leaps and bounds is because we have resorting to inbreeding and are producing unhealthy children!

I say that wherever a person finds himself able to minister let him minister. His doctrine and loyalty to the movement will show true if it is in his heart...if not, he won't be loyal within the movement anyway!

We have bred rebellion and don't know how to deal with it!

We need to get over ourselves and get back to the principles of the kingdom!

Neil




ok... LRV is out... send for Billy's transfer... make him go through the MIP... then take the Exhorters exam to see if he can make at least a seventy... Wink Wink Wink
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